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-   -   Accidental racism from Dan... (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=137531)

Foonacha 07-07-2004 20:44
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnno
Well, we should ALL be in favour of a system of 'proper english'. The fact of the matter is this:

The Americans recognised very early,18/19th century that PROPER english was the way to go. Now all Americans over that VAST continent speak english more or less as each other - that is how they are taught to SPEAK english in schools. They have an accent, but they are taught how to speak english. They all understand each other, and WE understand them. And fact is they have the 'purest' form of english on the planet, not the English!

English is spoken all over the world, not only with 'accents' but in dialects and variations which MEANS guys that very very soon english will soon be a language that is NOT understood by all english speakers beacuse it has been so bastardised. AND that also means that within this country of England there could be so many 'versions' that even WE will not understand each other, and that is quickly approaching.

So for those of you who think that HOW english is spoken is NOT important, and that it is great that different cultures all speak a different english is great, then think on! Soon we will have a country in which we all speak English, but in which we cannot all understand each other. Is THAT what we want? Innit? So Cedric, against the notion of 'proper english', don't get annoyed if in 10 years time we see a nation and peoples divided by language! AND what is worse, a nation in which the 'classes' are divided by which dialect of english they speak! Everyone speaking 'proper English' at least creates a culture where how you speak English will not be a reason for immediate judgement and discrimination... as it is almost already. Fact. Innit?!
I think thats what i was saying ;)

Cedric 07-07-2004 20:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBs Funny Uncle
BEV - Aka Ebonics

Not actually a recognised dialect and not native to the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_English_Vernacular

Victor speaks BEC, British English Cockney, innit.
Hmmm, I was not aware of BEC. But this by no means changes the meaning and purpose of my post. Perhaps he does speak BEC or BEV, it's a long time since I studied it, and I now work in a completely different field.

However whether it is BEV or BEC, the relevance and importance of what Im trying to say remains unchanged.

Big_Bro_Man 07-07-2004 20:49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric
Trying to halt the progression of the language is as impossible as trying to halt the sun coming up in the morning. It is going to change, because it never stops changing!

The only way to achieve your desired goal would be to remove all speakers of anything other than Standard English from the country and to completely halt immigration in any form. You would have to ban media that portrayed other cultures in anyway.
Ethnicity is a positive thing that inevitably brings with it language variations.

I would bet that back in the days of Chaucer, there would be some people trying to halt the language changing. If they had suceeded then we would still be saying things like "ful fetisly ydight with herbes swoote".
That is an example of one of the earliest forms of English, without the change that you despise so much, you would not be speaking your beloved Standard English, indeed, it would only exist as in the form set out by Chaucer.

Language progression CAN NOT be halted.

From Chaucer to Shakespeare to present day, language has always been changing, and I promise that you can not stop it.
Language progession if you could call it that can easily be halted. People simply don't do it.

Poor education systems are to blame I say.

I mean if someone wants a good job, or even just to present themselves satisfactorily to other people then they must know proper English.

Like I said your income makes no difference, nor does your background.

I find it quite patronising that British-Asians are presumed to talk like this.

What about Asian doctors? They can talk properly! :rolleyes:

This whole "innit" talk p!sses me off. That, and "chav talk" are the two things I'd have to put into Room 101. There really is no call for it.

Anyway back to the topic. You say Language progression.

I thought progression was all about improving things?

Dany 07-07-2004 20:49
Dan was dressed as a schoolboy when he mde the joke about vic using the word Innit all the tme and one of the thngs they trech younat school is to ues good gramma. if anybody bothet to listen to waht he said after he ame his joke you will of heaer ne give he real reason for namting vic which was becouse he was allwys whispering with jay. and Danis not racest becous Innit is comon slang that is ued by a lot of people in the Uk

befor an one pulls me up on my gramma I have dylexia. :D

Cedric 07-07-2004 20:50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTed187
Crackin' son! Cedric may come down off his high horse now...
My high horse? Isn't it you that is coming across slightly superior? What with telling people how they should speak and all.

JonDoe 07-07-2004 20:51
Dan isn't a racist but Victor isn't a moron, you can't be blamed for phrases that you pick up from your environment, it's no more moronic than a scouse accent or a south country twang. Maybe when he's older, he'll phase it out but he's only 23 at the moment. Give the lad a break.

Dan's reason was poor but, as he's already said, it's a 'pantomime reason'. I'm sure he's just playing the same game, just more subtley than Victor.

Susann, I'm disappointed. :(

MsBehaviour 07-07-2004 20:51
Quote:
Originally Posted by winstonsmith
I've never heard of BEV, but it strikes me that as much as people from all races say it, it's more of an Asian thing than a Black thing ...
As an Inner London teacher I first heard 'innit' used by young asians (many years ago now), before it became a staple of BEV.

ebjeebe 07-07-2004 20:52
Hang on, I'm getting a bit peed off with all this. Why is everyone getting so high and mighty about a word used by us south londoners. If you said that a northern person sounded thick because he said 'owt, there would be an out cry! Certain people are sounding like arrogant snobs IMO!

neituoisogni 07-07-2004 20:53
Forest Gate is a world centre for the evolution of English not f*cking Cumbria FFS. Get with the programme.

Big_Bro_Man 07-07-2004 20:54
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsBehaviour
As an Inner London teacher I first heard 'innit' used by young asians (many years ago now), before it became a staple of BEV.
Surely it's your job to beat it out of them to let them get a good education and for them to get a good career?

And not all young Asians use it - only the idiot ones. I know two young Asians who are more mature than that, and out do me when it comes to talking proper English.

Quote:
My high horse? Isn't it you that is coming across slightly superior? What with telling people how they should speak and all.
No actually there is just a way people are expected to talk, and "innit" is not acceptable really now is it?

No one is on a "high horse" here.

thms 07-07-2004 20:54
found a very long american essay the subject of 'black english vernacular' http://aawc.com/ebonicsarticle.html

you may want to read the paragraph beginning.......

'black english vernacular thus represents a unique dialect with social, historical and cultural roots. to equate this vernacular with slang, as though it were merely an unsystematic and casual form of communication, is not only scientifically inaccurate, but also psychologically denigrating to its speakers.......

Foonacha 07-07-2004 20:55
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebjeebe
Hang on, I'm getting a bit peed off with all this. Why is everyone getting so high and mighty about a word used by us south londoners. If you said that a northern person sounded thick because he said 'owt, there would be an out cry! Certain people are sound like arrogant snobs IMO!
Ahh...now we see the raising of another pertinent issue of our times:The North-South divide within English Culture ;)
Wasn`t anywhere north of Watford supposed to be considered uncivilised in the past?(if you lived in London that is! lol)

juniper99 07-07-2004 20:56
Quote:
Originally Posted by neituoisogni
Forest Gate is a world centre for the evolution of English not f*cking Cumbria FFS. Get with the programme.
:confused: what????? who says it needs to be evolved?? The English language is a fine language - why try and change it??

Cedric 07-07-2004 20:56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bro_Man
5) I'm sure many "black" people would be offended by the fact you assume they cannot talk properly, and have to resort to a cut down version of the English language.

Again, I am not going to point my finger at you and say your racist for point number 5. I'll merely put it down to sheer ignorance.
Have you not read anything I've said? At all? I have been arguing that there is no such thing as proper English. At what point did I say or imply that Victor or other 'black people' do not speak 'proper' English.

I have repeated again, and again that not all black people are speakers of BEV or BEC and that these variations are not wrong ways of speaking. Trevor Macdonald being the perfect example.

Big_Bro_Man 07-07-2004 20:57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebjeebe
Hang on, I'm getting a bit peed off with all this. Why is everyone getting so high and mighty about a word used by us south londoners. If you said that a northern person sounded thick because he said 'owt, there would be an out cry! Certain people are sounding like arrogant snobs IMO!
Why is it snobbish to think the proper way of talking is superior to the incorrect way?

Anyone can change the way they talk - it is not reserved for "an elite" like some people think.

Personally I don't care if your from the North or South - or even Scottish. There is no reason to talk like a pheasant, and it doesn't cost anything.

There is nothing "snobbish" about it.

Lisa765 07-07-2004 20:57
Where I come from oop North where we watch tv by candlelight we've always said 'innit' instead of 'isn't it'...although we don't put it at the end of any sentence just for something to say :D

No, we say 'champion' and 'appen' for that ;) innit.

captainO 07-07-2004 20:57
I don't get offended when people refer to us 'Jocks' and the vernacular we spout. Aye, ya wee baw bag. I don't see it as any way racist. Ya bunch eh fannies. Get a grip will ye. I sincerely hope this thread was a complete wind up, otherwise I am staying well ensconsed north of the border. Shite.

SuperTed187 07-07-2004 20:57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric
My high horse? Isn't it you that is coming across slightly superior? What with telling people how they should speak and all.

I didn't tell anyone how to speak. Find me a quote son.

Cedric 07-07-2004 20:57
Quote:
Originally Posted by juniper99
:confused: what????? who says it needs to be evolved?? The English language is a fine language - why try and change it??
Nobodys trying to change it. It is inevitable.

neituoisogni 07-07-2004 20:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by juniper99
:confused: what????? who says it needs to be evolved?? The English language is a fine language - why try and change it??
If you don't change it someone else will. It's called evolution.

NewWoman 07-07-2004 20:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnno
because the world you describe is the world of east London only, and not anywhere else if your clients want to get employment elsewhere in this country or abroad.
Errr, no its not actually. I work in a major European investment bank in the City of London. I also worked in Spain for several years and then worked for a large North American bank, where my job involved travelling to Canada several times a year on business.
My husband, who is as cockney as they come, returned to London last year after spending time working in a multinational company in New York.

Btw, before anyone else jumps to any conclusions, I've never so much as set foot on a council estate in my life.

All these stereotypes just cos someone says 'innit' :rolleyes:

Anyway, off to watch The Long Firm now. Hope the cockney accents in the show dont offend the sensitive little ears of all you language snobs.

ebjeebe 07-07-2004 20:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foonacha
Ahh...now we see the raising of another pertinent issue of our times:The North-South divide within English Culture ;)
Wasn`t anywhere north of Watford supposed to be considered uncivilised in the past?(if you lived in London that is! lol)
No point in pretending there isn't one, is there.

juniper99 07-07-2004 20:59
ffs - no wonder the people of Cornwall want to become independent - they have my full support now, just because they will hold on to a traditional english language

kyresa 07-07-2004 20:59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Bro_Man
Poor education systems are to blame I say.
Not to mention the parents who these days are too willing to sit their offspring in front of the tv rather than sit with them and read a book, do writing, drawing or such like.

Innit!

Big_Bro_Man 07-07-2004 21:00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric
Have you not read anything I've said? At all? I have been arguing that there is no such thing as proper English. At what point did I say or imply that Victor or other 'black people' do not speak 'proper' English.

I have repeated again, and again that not all black people are speakers of BEV or BEC and that these variations are not wrong ways of speaking. Trevor Macdonald being the perfect example.
There is such a thing as proper English. If you were ever involved with professional services such as Chartered Accountancy, Lawyers, Chartered Surveyors etc. you'd soon learn that there is people out there who are very pedantic at letterwriting and speaking - all in the name of professionalism of course.

You did not imply all Asian people spoke in this way, correct.

However, you did make the point that Dan was racist for slating Victor for talking this way......


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