[Bundyman]

Originally Posted by Paul McCool

Well said, that man. And this is community radio's opportunity. Unlike commercial radio, community radio is by definition local, a notion commercial radio is abandoning.

Content is king. We've all got access to the same music. The speech, however little of it a station chooses to provide, will be the defining characteristic. Make it local and you're on to a winner.

Emulating the failing business model of commercial radio is not the way forward. You won't get rich in community radio but you will get the chance to do radio the way you see fit. If you get it wrong, so what? At least you had a go. In commercial radio you're only one forgotten strapline from the boot!

The medium will also change as the method of delivery changes. When wi-fi, or whatever wi-fi becomes, is able to deliver radio everywhere, expensive FM equipment won't be necessary. Sure this will spawn even more dross, as more TV channels has done, but there will be some rough diamonds out there and they will one day shine.

So, long live community radio. Do it your way, not everyone else's. It's radio, not brain surgery.

I do agree...to a point.

The quickest way for a community station to fail is to try & copy the commercial stations.

BUT

Some of these stations are trying too hard to be so different to commercial stations that they become unlistenable.

I'm not a fan of specialist shows, never was, & today if you really like Jazz why would you wait for Thursday at 9pm for an hour of Jazz from your local community station, when you get it 24/7 via the internet. People don't remember when specialist shows are on (except a few diehards), Ofcom should never have made it a requirement.

As for interviewing people from the council *yawn*, why would anybody want to listen to that.

In my opinion (and do doubt i'll be told i'm wrong), you can be very very local & still play 12 songs an hour from a very large database of songs. That's the way forward.

[FredHart]

Originally Posted by Bundyman

In my opinion (and do doubt i'll be told i'm wrong), you can be very very local & still play 12 songs an hour from a very large database of songs. That's the way forward.

I agree with that - the music that is chosen is just a way of keeping listeners interested - I doubt anyone would want to sit down and listen to a whole hour of chat, so music just spreads things out a bit - maybe have slightly more of it during the evening when people might sit down to dinner with the radio on, put on more speech based content during the day when people might want to tune in and find out what sport activities are available in their local area - that sort of thing. When I'm presenting my programmes I try and link the music to what the programme is about - ie, when doing a feature about a walking club last June I played a piece of music which had some relevence to walking - and that way I had a programme of music with a local connection. You don't even have to play music that is available commercially - maybe get an unsigned band in to play live or something like that!

[DoctorDave]

[quote=Bundyman;24326095]
BUT
Some of these stations are trying too hard to be so different to commercial stations that they become unlistenable.
I'm not a fan of specialist shows, never was, & today if you really like Jazz why would you wait for Thursday at 9pm for an hour of Jazz from your local community station, when you get it 24/7 via the internet. People don't remember when specialist shows are on (except a few diehards), Ofcom should never have made it a requirement.
As for interviewing people from the council *yawn*, why would anybody want to listen to that.[quote]

It's an interesting concept of trying to encapsulate what "some of these stations are trying to be". Ask the people who run these station and I think you'd have 100+ different answers with only a modicum of commonality.
As to specialist shows I think that they have a very definite place, especially as many of the presenters tend to be very knowledgeable, and often very much in tune with events that are happening in their area, and can be especially good at promoting events that might otherwise be overlooked, as well as getting some cross fertilisation of music audiences with the knowledge that such events are taking place.
I can't speak for what other stations do with their "people from the Council" but so far the one that I work for has managed to provide some interesting information about a range of topics from 'cycle to work' and garden recycling, to informed discussions about redevelopment of certain City Centre sites. There have been very few occasions when someone has been put forward who wasn't able to be informed, succinct and often (gasp!) quite interesting.

[Phil Tonks]

Aha! A nice juicy can of worms opened here!
My take as a Director of a community radio station:
Community radio means different things to different people.
Whilst some stations aim at being a specialist service, such as religious or one that serves their local society, some of us are aimed generally at our local community.
And it can be very challenging!
At our station, there are over 30 volunteers. None of us are full-time, all of us have full-time jobs or other things to occupy us during the day / week. Yes, that frustrates us, because it means that, whilst it is a challenge to get live programming on for 17 hours a day, every day, other aspects of running the station move very slowly, because we don't have resources to employ full-time staff to carry out the tasks that need doing quickly.
What do we sound like?
Of course we aren't as slick as our friends in commercial or BBC radio. But I'd like to think that, most of the time, we are listenable as a real alternative to BBC or commercial.
Please also remember that, not only are most of our people not radio professionals (although they improve with every show that they do), we are also asking them to talk openly during their show about all sorts of things, whether it is just about the songs they are playing, or more in-depth as part of a speech-based show. Speech radio is something that needs knowledge, research and an abilty to juggle several things at once on air, and we are truly proud of every single one of our team who are all without exception improving in the 6 months that we've been on air.
You won't find a six second speed link on our station! And that isn't knocking the format - we're just saying that we're trying to provide a listenable alternative on the dial.
Filling airtime is a challenge.
We decided from a very early stage that we had to be "different" during the daytime, but not THAT different so as it became a niche market that only a tiny minority would listen to. So that's why during weekday daytimes, you'll here a lot of songs that may be familiar, but even these have been carefully selected, with a few real gems in there!
Evenings and wekends are much more free-range, and we have all sorts of programming on that could be considered "specialist" and we're constantly reviewing that to bring in more.
The point about not having the need for this because of the emergence of the IPod generation is a fair one, but remember that some of the older generation don't have this technology, and often people are in the car just listening whilst driving - the era of MP3s in car is certainly increasing, but still by no means common.
So should community radio sound bad, asks the thread poster?
Well, everyone knows the answer to that question! None of us in community radio goes out to sound "bad"! We go out to work hard, often unpaid, to provide something genuinely different on the radio. If, as a previous poster puts it, you don't like it, simply tune away.
But judging by the text, email, phone calls and feedback we have had after 6 months on air, we have listeners who like what we do, and we're proud to be giving them that alternative.
And it's not about one or the other. Even I tune away from my station sometimes for something on a BBC or commercial station!

[FredHart]

Originally Posted by Phil Tonks

My take as a Director of a community radio station:

I agree with your take as a director of a community radio station - as you have said it isn't about copying the slick-ness (if that is a word) of a BBC or commercial radio station, but it is about providing a listenable alternative that is local and appropriate to the listener.

Should community radio sound bad? I agree with you that no one tries to be bad - but if it does sound bad then it just goes to show how community radio stations are run by ordinary members of the community who are giving up their free time to do something unpaid, rather than a celebrity who is getting paid millions of £s to play nothing but music.

[Dan Martin]

In my opinion there are a various types of community radio:

Generic - Designed to cover an area which is has got a varied about of community which means it plays a good mix of mainstream music young and old with local content that would interest anyone.

Religious - Designed to cover a distinct religious community.

Youth - Designed to cover the young/teenage community



Now stations whcih are 2 and 3 are meant to sound superbly different from the BBC and commercial stations, but 3 is saying probably would sound simular to a CHR but with more content.

But in my opinion stations falling in the first category should try to sound as professional as possible and slick but keep to there remit of social gain. There is a way you can do it you need to be fast moving and play a good mix of music but include the news and information with PERSONALITY. Don't make it sound a chore or just have some recorded message that goes on air every odd 30 minutes. We at Erewash on our RSL had a loyal audience who loved the difference in our style but also the music was a main factor in the listenership. It still is on the internet, people like the fact it is so interactive and they feel its there station.

[alanwheeler]

Originally Posted by Dan Martin

But in my opinion stations falling in the first category should try to sound as professional as possible .

Well Dan exactly what i was trying to say.........

In the businesses i have been involved in I have always done the job to the best of my ability, but if I hadnt had the ability in the first place I wouldnt have even tried.

Nice to see constructive remarks along with destuctive comments.

[Watty Stoatir]

Originally Posted by alanwheeler

Just a thought,

Should community radio stations sound the way majority of them do!!!

If you have listened to CR stations around the country you will find that not a lot of them have a pro sound to them, therefor you wouldnt listen to then unless your radio was stuck on thier frequency.....

isn't it about time that the CR stations took a stand and showed the big boys what they are made of instead of playing it safe having a local council in to tell them what the local council is not doing......

Why not get into the community as your license application states and fulfill the objectives they set out to do which most of them was to make a difference to the local community.

Had my wine now have your say......

May i offer you the oppertunity to listen to Celtic Music Radio.
We serve Glasgow and west Scotland with an AM signal and in my opinion we sound quite good. We do what we set out to do and do it well.

We have recenty comleted repairs to the TX system and we are very pleased with the results so far.

Give a listen www.celticmusicradio.net
or if you are in the wes of Scotland at anytime try 1530 kHz AM .

Not all community radio is about shouts for pals and lost cats etc. We have performing artists as studio guests almost daily and have attracted a vast internet following across the pond.

Community radio is EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT TO MAKE IT, so stop whinging and get on with

Regards

[Phil Ander]

I think it depends on the audience CR is aiming at.

If I could put in a word for Angel Radio in Havant and on the Isle of Wight. This is music from the 50s and earlier which to many of you may sound antique but that is the point. British Radio neglects older listeners. The BBC is the guilty party here aping commercial radio playlists.

Thing is the audience for Angel is unlikely to want slick DJs who are in your face. The audience wants presenters with whom they can identify.

[Paul McCool]

Originally Posted by Phil Ander

I think it depends on the audience CR is aiming at.

If I could put in a word for Angel Radio in Havant and on the Isle of Wight. This is music from the 50s and earlier which to many of you may sound antique but that is the point. British Radio neglects older listeners. The BBC is the guilty party here aping commercial radio playlists.

Thing is the audience for Angel is unlikely to want slick DJs who are in your face. The audience wants presenters with whom they can identify.

This is exactly what community radio should be doing. You are so right, mainstream radio ignores older listeners. Pre-1950s music is such a great niche to be in to. I can't believe a commercial station hasn't been launched to cater for this age group. There are more older people in this country than ever before and they have time on their hands. Why not fill it?

Good work.

[raw spud]

I too would like to see a station playing older music. Listening to the 1950's music is a real education. However, surely the problem is simply one of age. To re enjoy music from 1950 you would have to have been born during the war. That all means you would be pushing 65-70 now. Not sure you could attract presenters suitably knowledgeabe to run the station. The management with the necessary tech skills would need to be younger and probably not want to be involved with an OLD format. Some 30 somethings struggle with music from the 1960's.
Saga/Prime couldn't make it pay commercially and the energy levels needed to raise grants and funding could also be an issue.
Now...back to my Guy Mitchell...."she wears red feathers"

[belleville1]

One of the things that makes community radio look dreadful is the kind of infighting and b**ching that goes on via boards like this one. (See the post above, which appeared to be a public ticking-off of a former presenter on some RSL or other and a textbook example of awful management. Might send it in for inclusion in the next CR Toolkit under "what not to do".) Don't think your listeners won't find this stuff; this is a popular website for things other than radio and many will be on here right now, particularly during Big Brother season. It's not the first time I've noticed it from various members.

[Arthur Grainger]

Of all the community radio stations I have heard (and I have heard quite a few) I could not describe them as being dreadful, rubbish or "so bad." In fact, I would put community radio, it's volunteers, management and even its listeners and others who participate in the making of community radio in very high esteem.

There are not enough community stations out there and I would personally like to see every community (geographical, ethnic, special interest or otherwise) represented in some form or another, usually by the people who are a part of each community, with radio being one of many mediums that super-serve them, with radio being the audio gateway to all the other mediums (journals, websites etc) that cater for each place and niche - no matter what you might think about them.

When I listen to Insight being done and presented by blind and partially sighted people for blind and partially sighted people - there is nothing for me to criticise. Likewise Revival Radio for Lanarkshire's christian community, Celtic Music Radio for anyone with an interest in that form of music, Sunny Govan Radio for the people and by the people of that area of Glasgow, Leith FM ditto, Black Diamond FM, SHMU FM and so on - I wonder just exactly what you are criticising or even why?

OK, they might not always be as professional as you like them to be at any particular instant you might have tuned in but try and see this as much more than radio, i.e. a pile of songs, chat and a few jingles. These are community organisations, in the form of radio, serving their communties, just like your gala committees, regeneration groups, community councils, youth groups, toddlers groups, parent-teachers associations, senior citizens groups and so on.

[electricgiraffe]

I have real mixed views on this... part of me says basic bad programme technique is easily solved with training and coaching. Doing the odd snoop session with presenters would seen tighten things up and make programmes more listenable, which would then draw in listeners which makes the whole thing more worthwhile all round. it doesn't take much, I've trained kids how to drive desks in less than half an hour.
On the other hand, people are turning to MP3's because radio has become too slick, it lacks in personaility and human warmth. So if a presenter waffles on, talks about noises her can hear outside they become more real, more human and what some listeners actually want to hear.
What a station sound slike is really down to a number of factors that should start and top with the listener. What do they want? what does the market dictate? Specislists shows may turn some off but community radio is about reach, not share. Interviews with the council may be dull but if your funding depends on it then needs must.. Bits may sound bad, bits may sound.. some stations may sound more polished than others but that's the nature of the beast.

[Paul McCool]

Originally Posted by raw spud

Not sure you could attract presenters suitably knowledgeabe to run the station. The management with the necessary tech skills would need to be younger and probably not want to be involved with an OLD format. Some 30 somethings struggle with music from the 1960s.
Saga/Prime couldn't make it pay commercially and the energy levels needed to raise grants and funding could also be an issue.

All good points and I'm sure that's one of the reasons why this kind of music is seldom heard on the air.

Granted, it takes fans of an era to present with authority, but they don't have to have lived through it to know about it. Radio 3 and Classic FM seem to manage and some of their output is hundreds of years old!

[deepfroat]

Originally Posted by Bundyman

I'm not a fan of specialist shows, never was, & today if you really like Jazz why would you wait for Thursday at 9pm for an hour of Jazz from your local community station, when you get it 24/7 via the internet.

The best specialist shows on communty radio play local bands and plug local gigs - the Blues show on GTFM in south Wales is a case in point. You don't get that on an internet jukebox.

Originally Posted by Bundyman

People don't remember when specialist shows are on (except a few diehards)

Simply not true if the presenter promotes his show externally. And specialist music fans tend to be diehards so will make an appointment to listen - these shows aren't necessarily aimed at the general audience.

[deepfroat]

Originally Posted by Arthur Grainger

These are community organisations, in the form of radio, serving their communties, just like your gala committees, regeneration groups, community councils, youth groups, toddlers groups, parent-teachers associations, senior citizens groups and so on.

Good point well made, Arthur - you might as well complain that a local rock band playing a gala isn't as good as Led Zeppelin, or that the food isn't the quality you'd expect at the Savoy Grill.

[belleville1]

I tend to make a point of tuning into community radio if I find myself driving through a station's patch. It adds a bit of interest to a boring journey and can help give you some of the local flavour of wherever it is you are.

I've heard some absolute rot--I'll leave out names to spare blushes, but I was in an East Anglian city one Friday lunchtime the other week and tuned in to the local CR to find some bloke playing nothing but tracks from a BBC "horror" sound effects disc. How do I know this? Because after I'd sat bemusedly in the traffic for about ten minutes listening to people screaming, the nerdy-sounding presenter deigned to tell me. Alan Partridge it most certainly wasn't, so I flipped across to the amusingly named 99 Radio Norwich.

This sort of self-indulgent junk seems to be an increasing rarity these days as stations find their feet within the communities they're serving, though. On that same journey, I heard another station called HFM which boasted a fully local, professional-sounding news bulletin put together by dedicated station reporters. 209 Radio from Cambridge was playing songs by local bands. I think I've already mentioned Kemet FM in Nottingham on this forum with its slick urban music format, entertaining breakfast show and local info-packed broadcast. New Style in Birmingham is similarly impressive. Pure in Stockport is a slightly different kettle of fish with regular paid presenters, but still puts out programming that's bursting with speech features about the town and its happenings. I could go on...

CR has struggled in its first few years to find programming that people actually want. The premise behind some stations has been shaky, to say the least, and there are many groups in areas with high potential that are still punching well below their weight with dodgy programming, boring automation and syndicated national news-feeds. There are a lot of stations that won't survive--the ones that will prosper and benefit their areas will, as Arthur says, be those which spend the time and effort getting to know people and groups and becoming a fully involved aspect of local life, not nerds sitting in ivory towers playing "anovver claaaah-ssic choon from the eighdies".

[Inkblot]

Originally Posted by raw spud

I too would like to see a station playing older music. Listening to the 1950's music is a real education. However, surely the problem is simply one of age. To re enjoy music from 1950 you would have to have been born during the war. That all means you would be pushing 65-70 now. Not sure you could attract presenters suitably knowledgeabe to run the station. The management with the necessary tech skills would need to be younger and probably not want to be involved with an OLD format. Some 30 somethings struggle with music from the 1960's.
Saga/Prime couldn't make it pay commercially and the energy levels needed to raise grants and funding could also be an issue.

On the other hand a lot of charities rely on retired people to organise collections, run fund-raising events and liaise with local businesses. The people who run the local branches of major national charities have to be very on-the-ball and deal with large sums of money. I'm sure that age isn't an obstacle if you believe in what you're doing and have the necessary business expertise.

I just wonder whether setting up community radio is something that active, well-educated and commercially-minded retired people can be bothered with. Isn't there some axiom that the people who are most in favour of community radio are the ones who most want to be on the radio?

[raw spud]

Yes. I would agree Inkblot. There will be some older people with the skill to launch a CR station. However, the other question would be "how many" in a community and that would probably be the stumbling block.