[TelevisionUser]

...according to the BBC's Mark Friend who is the controller of Multiplatform & Interactive, BBC Audio & Music here http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009...ardian-letters.

This comment arose as a response to Jack Schofield's original article here http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/orga...-plan-troubles suggesting that the global radio industry is heading for chaos. I would be interested to hear your views on these comments.

As for me, I think it's stretching things too far to "DAB, DAB+ & DMB are compatible" standards. Just because these formats might be available on a modern multi-format radio does not necessarily make them compatible.

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by TelevisionUser;36985099.

As for me, I think it's stretching things too far to "DAB, DAB+ & DMB are compatible" standards. Just because these formats might be available on a modern multi-format radio does not necessarily make them compatible.

While Mark Friend was replying to the first blog Jack Scofield clarified his
position in another blog
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...adio-drbd-rant

My unforgivable thought-crime is simply to argue that the British radio industry should follow the lead of many other countries and the World DAB Forum: admit that DAB isn't up to snuff and announce plans to move to DAB+.

Britain is sticking with original DAB but may be introducing DAB+ like podcasts for some sets.
Other European countries and Australia are introducing DAB+ but sometimes keeping some original DAB stations, except for France which is introducing DMB audio similar to Korea! All the systems confirm to Eureka 147 standard.

If you get a modern set which meets the "Worlddmb profile" standard (none on sale so far, but Pure and Revo say they are on the way, some sets also with wifi)
http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=395

The announcement will ensure that digital radios bought in France, for example, also work in Germany, Norway or the UK and vice versa, and will apply to any country in Europe or beyond using the WorldDMB Eureka147 family of standards.

The new sets will adjust automatically to which system is being used, therefore new multistandard sets will be compatible

[TelevisionUser]

Originally Posted by hanssolo

While Mark Friend was replying to the first blog Jack Scofield clarified his
position in another blog
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...adio-drbd-rant

Britain is sticking with original DAB but may be introducing DAB+ like podcasts for some sets.
Other European countries and Australia are introducing DAB+ but sometimes keeping some original DAB stations, except for France which is introducing DMB audio similar to Korea! All the systems confirm to Eureka 147 standard.

If you get a modern set which meets the "Worlddmb profile" standard (none on sale so far, but Pure and Revo say they are on the way, some sets also with wifi)
http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=395
The new sets will adjust automatically to which system is being used, therefore new multistandard sets will be compatible

Exactly hanssolo, the newer, multi-format radio sets are compatible with the different standards.

Maybe I was missing something but that article seemed to indicate that the standards themselves were compatible which strikes me as being a bit economical with the truth (if you can see where I am coming from!).

[hanssolo]

DAB, DAB+ and DMB can be mixed on the same mux and the datastreams are compatable which means they can use EON with FM RDS and DRM, so a station can automatically change to the standard format that give the best signal.
However the US HD IOBC and the Japanese radio systems are incompatable.
Switzerland is considering mixing DAB+ and HD IOBC in 2010which will challenge set makers!

[2Bdecided]

It's interesting to see what the BBC have been saying about DAB recently.

Let's be honest - they're in trouble. Parts of the commercial radio world are walking - no, running - away from the idea of digital radio switch over.

Despite their various fingers in the DAB pie, in terms of station success, almost the whole of the commercial radio world wouldn't miss DAB. The few stations that would simply don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

The BBC is the only significant broadcaster with sizeable digital-only stations. They risk being the only ones left at the DAB party - a party they started, and that seemed the cool place to be for a while, but is now looking a rather dated place to hang out.


So they say silly things like the quote at the top of this thread. There's also a set of BBC web pages where they claim what great sound quality DAB gives you!


It seems that, after a recent period of sanity, we're heading back to the early 2000s - when the BBC would say and do anything to make DAB a success - including being "economical with the truth".


They must be very very scared, desperate, or both!


(Look out for their attempts to kiss David Cameron's a**e over the next few months!)

Cheers,
David.

[Westward]

Originally Posted by 2Bdecided

It's interesting to see what the BBC have been saying about DAB recently.

Let's be honest - they're in trouble. Parts of the commercial radio world are walking - no, running - away from the idea of digital radio switch over.

Despite their various fingers in the DAB pie, in terms of station success, almost the whole of the commercial radio world wouldn't miss DAB. The few stations that would simply don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

The BBC is the only significant broadcaster with sizeable digital-only stations. They risk being the only ones left at the DAB party - a party they started, and that seemed the cool place to be for a while, but is now looking a rather dated place to hang out.

The only negative quotes from commercial broadcasters that I have seen have been from UTV, UKRD & TLRC.

UTV owns one national station and heritage stations in Swansea and Stoke but apart from that they are small players in commercial radio who own small-scale stations.

The large players in UK commercial radio are Global, H Bauer & GMG. As reported previously Global are desperate to push DAB through because the alternative is a bidding war for their 100-102 FM licence.

If you can find evidence that the the three main commercial broadcasters are about to quit DAB I'll read it with interest, because I haven't seen it yet.

[hanssolo]

UTV are not against DAB and have siad they find more listening to Talksport in some DAB radio owning households, it seems to be just the timetable and the lack of an auction for Classic FM's licence they are against.
UKRD are also keen on DAB but are against Ofcom's plans for merging DAB muxes where they would prefer to see more frequencies to allow smaller DAB optout areas!

[2Bdecided]

Originally Posted by Westward

As reported previously Global are desperate to push DAB through because the alternative is a bidding war for their 100-102 FM licence.

...you mention this (again) as if it's a positive point for DAB.

Their only profitable use for DAB is that, thanks to OfCom's strange policy making, it helps them keep their main FM station.

Like I said - it's FM they care about. They wouldn't miss DAB.

If OfCom had let them keep Classic FM on 100-102FM by giving away free bicycles, they'd be giving away free bicycles! As it happens, they get to keep Classic FM on 100-102 by supporting DAB.


DAB continues because of a regulatory quirk. You can't build the future of radio on a regulatory quirk.

If you can find evidence that the the three main commercial broadcasters are about to quit DAB I'll read it with interest, because I haven't seen it yet.

Read the industry responses to The Digital Economy Bill. Most are desperate to have switch over ASAP, and have someone else pay for it (probably the BBC or government).

If/when this doesn't happen, what do you think the fall back position will be? My guess: another painful decade, just like the last, with no profit to be made from digital radio, and yet more stations falling off DAB.

I admit this is purely guess work on my part - but read what's being said - look at these silly statements from the BBC - it's the cure or kill moment for the DAB disease - beyond what's essential to keep the OfCom FM sweetners, and a very lonely looking BBC, who is pumping the money in to "cure" DAB?

Why has nobody published a realistic economic model for digital terrestrial radio which demonstrates convincingly that it is financially worthwhile?

Perhaps because one does not exist?

from http://grantgoddardradioblog.blogspot.com/

Cheers,
David.

[hanssolo]

But David the success of DAB has depended where you live, in your area DAB has still to be rolled out whereas in other areas it has been more successful , to quote the report.

“The RadioCentre was asked to present figures, drawn from the existing Rajar and DRDB figures, setting out the current information on the number of DAB sales, household penetration and listening, defined by region, age and social class.”

“The figures, which are annexed to this report at B [but excluded from the published version], show a number of interesting trends. For example sales, penetration and listening to DAB vary across the UK. Generally speaking, listening and awareness of DAB is highest in London and the South East, and the English Midlands. These have been the areas of longest DAB broadcasts and the widest choice of stations.”

The rollout of DAB transmitters is not paid for by Government but by Arqiva getting long term loans, if the bill is passed then licences can run until 2030 which allows Arqiva to raise the cash from the banks or it's pension fund owner!
It also means that radio groups can plan long term transmission rental costs towards full UK coverage.
It could be both DAB and internet radio will both increase.
The BBC can only plan up to 2016 when the charter is renewed so it is up to the trust to confirm with the BBC management and Arqiva to raise the funds if the final DAB expansion is worth it before 2016?.

I had a quick look at the bill report Grant provides a link to and think it means Government (DCMS) cost monitoring towards FM switchoff will start in 2011, rather than the DAB and Internet rollout and upgrades which are in progress now!

[2Bdecided]

Originally Posted by hanssolo

But David the success of DAB has depended where you live, in your area DAB has still to be rolled out whereas in other areas it has been more successful

There are digital-only stations that are "successful"?

Name one that's turning a profit.


As you know, I'm hardly a fan of DAB(!), but it seems the talk of digital switch over has been focussing minds - but not in the way that the proposers might have hoped. As you say, digital transmitter roll out continues steadily - but it's in a different gear (universe!) from the proposed switch over time table.


FWIW I doubt we'll ever have a DAB tx covering where I live. The FM signal spills over the hills - just - but I bet co-sighted DAB wouldn't - double the frequency, so poorer propagation. It takes three transmitter sites to give us TV - and that seems a bit pointless given the number of dishes there are.


The main problem as I see it is that this is going to cost someone a lot of money, and isn't going to make any one any extra money, so either we end up paying for it (quite likely - through the licence fee), or the broadcasters end up paying for it - and that'll be the death of some of them!

Cheers,
David.

[_ben]

Originally Posted by hanssolo

DAB, DAB+ and DMB can be mixed on the same mux

Are you sure, I thought DAB+ used extra error correction for the whole mux which DAB radios wouldn't understand.

[Jung]

L






Lets just stick with FM, its been around for many years and it works. There is nothing to beat the FM sound on a good quality radio. What are you supposed to do if you have just purchased an expensive car, and they switch FM off and replace it with DAB? Most cars have thier radios built in these days, its not possible to go to Halfords and buy a replacement DAB to fit the car. DAB does not sound as good as FM, so why do we need DAB? I dont need it, or want it. What we need are some good quality radio stations.

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by 2Bdecided

There are digital-only stations that are "successful"?

Name one that's turning a profit.

Of the 50+ stations in London on DAB about half are digital only
BBC Radio 1Xtra BBC Radio 5 SX BBC Radio 6 Music BBC Radio 7 BBC Asian Network Supported by licence fee
BFBS Radio Traffic Radio (London) Government supported
Amazing Radio Listener supported
Premier UCB Listener supported
Fun Kids Planet Rock Chill Galaxy (Yorkshire)(Digital only London) Jazz FM heat Polish Radio Dabbl Absolute Classic Rock Passion for the Planet Gaydar Rainbow Colourful NME Q Panjab Kerrang!(Digital only London) Punjabi The Hits.
Not sure if these stations make a profit, but they somehow seem to survive?

Originally Posted by _ben

Are you sure, I thought DAB+ used extra error correction for the whole mux which DAB radios wouldn't understand.

Error correction is applied to the station rather than the mux

[TelevisionUser]

Originally Posted by hanssolo

DAB, DAB+ and DMB can be mixed on the same mux and the datastreams are compatable which means they can use EON with FM RDS and DRM, so a station can automatically change to the standard format that give the best signal.
However the US HD IOBC and the Japanese radio systems are incompatable.
Switzerland is considering mixing DAB+ and HD IOBC in 2010which will challenge set makers!

Thanks for clearing that one up, hanssolo. If only the BBC exec had been that clear and succinct!

[2Bdecided]

Originally Posted by hanssolo

Not sure if these stations make a profit, but they somehow seem to survive?

There were previously lots more stations on DAB that "seemed to survive" - until they closed!

I doubt there's a single profitable digital-only station. Why? Because if there was a success story to sell, plenty of interested parties would be selling it.

Cheers,
David.

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by 2Bdecided

? Because if there was a success story to sell, plenty of interested parties would be selling it.

The trouble with DAB is seems to work in cities but not rural areas!
In London for the first time in ages the 5 muxes are now full with about 56 radio stations and several data services, with Spectrum splitting into 3 stations (original mixed, African and Arabic) , plus Absolute and Premier starting new stations!
There is just the 2 slots now left on D1 that need to be filled!

Ofcom are suggesting to expand the regional muxes (which are full) into a national D2, also merging some local muxes to overcome the problem of spare capacity on these muxes to make them pay for themselves,? Time will tell if this new policy will work!
One problem of this would be small local stations will be excluded and the UK could end up like Switzerland where the small stations want to go with a different digital system to the main stations