[kimindex]

I was struck by thisletter
in our local paper this week. I had heard of the Prayer Book Rebellion (and went to see the end of the commemorative march for the 1497 rebellion at Blackheath) but I'd never heard mention of a Cornish holocaust. It was a long, long time ago and everything has changed. Why do people like to bear grudges and perpetuate nationalistic anger in this way? What's the good of it? Why do English have to bear the brunt of so much hostility from the rest of the British Isles at times?

<<<I write to register my dismay upon seeing the design of the flower bed on Eastern Green at the entrance to Penzance - this being a representation of St George's Cross, which is an offensive symbol to a great many Cornish people.

I am further dismayed that Penwith District Council should have seen fit to expend public money - much of it Cornish money - on this blatant show of English nationalism on Cornish soil.
Nonetheless, St George's Cross is the symbol of one of the most shameful episodes in Britain's history, when, under orders from London, forces under Lord Russell and Lord Grey, reinforced by death squads sent across the Tamar and led by Sir Anthony Kingston, cold-bloodedly murdered a full ten per cent of the Cornish population.>>

Info on 'holocaust' here:
http://www.bavidge.co.uk/just_cornwall.htm

The first concerted attempt to impose English culture and language upon the Celtic Cornish occurred in 1549 when, at the demand of the previous king, Henry VIII, Catholicism was to be replaced by the Protestantism of the Anglican church.


The Cornish people resisted strongly, protesting particularly at the imposition of the English language that few of them spoke or understood (most were monoglot Cornish speakers) in church services.

The English response was shameful, bringing in foreign mercenaries and becoming the first state to use them in a civil dispute. These arquebusiers from Germany and Italy killed a thousand Cornish fighters, then murdered 900 unarmed Cornishmen at Clyst St Mary, 1300 Cornishmen were slaughtered at Sampford Courtnay and 300 Cornish patriots died at Fenny Bridges. The King being a mere child at the time, further orders were issued by the Lord Protector, the Earl of Somerset, and Archbishop Thomas Cranmer for the genocide of the Cornish people. Under Sir Anthony Kingston, English and mercenary forces moved into Cornwall and, in all, brought the slaughter up to 11% of its population before the butchery was stopped. With families deprived of their menfolk and livelihoods, the true figure of deaths caused by this barbaric crime accounted for 20% of the Cornish population.

[tally]

Kim, stop stirring.

Isn't it enough that we've seen such a wave of Anti English, anti Scot sentiment during the WC?

I dont know a single Cornish person who would agree with that letter. Newspapers do like to publish the crackpots who have nothing better to do, though.


However, I reserve the right to have a St Piran's flag on my car!!



And back to the tennis........


EDIT: I've never heard of that particular piece of "history" though well versed in Trelawney and Trescothick. Perhaps my teachers realised it was long done.

Personally I find referring to it as "The Cornish Holocaust" is distasteful and deeply insulting to anyone who suffered during The Shoah.

A plague on Nationlism. It isn't patriotism, it's narrow minded little bigots.

[kimindex]

Originally Posted by tally

Kim, stop stirring.

Isn't it enough that we've seen such a wave of Anti English, anti Scot sentiment during the WC?

I dont know a single Cornish person who would agree with that letter. Newspapers do like to publish the crackpots who have nothing better to do, though.


However, I reserve the right to have a St Piran's flag on my car!!



And back to the tennis........

I hope not. I saw some anti-English Cornish people in pubs during the WC but they were gently tolerated, thankfully, and no offence was taken. I was surprised I hadn't heard of it and it clearly was a terrible event.

But I am surprised at the anti-English mindset generally. I have a St Piran's flag on a necklace but I'm no nationalist! I have met some Cornish people who are though and consider themselves not to be English and hate being regarded as such. I'm just wondering why some people are so nationalistic?

As to the use of the word holocaust, I used it because ithat was what shocked me in the letter. I suppose 10-20% killing of a population could be described as such. I certainly don't intend any offence, obviously.

[clockworks999]

I wonder what these Cornishmen were doing in Devon? Seems odd that the article linked to doesn't mention that - obviously up to no good.

Maybe the few Cornish nationalists (along with the Welsh, Scots, and others), should take it out on the Norman French, who actually ran England, rather than the English (Angles), who lost out in 1066 (unless my fading knowledge of history fails me).

Having lived in Cornwall for eight years, I can't say I've seen much evidence of anti-English sentiment, just the odd nutter writing to the local paper. Without the income from tourism - much of of it English money - the place would be dying on it's feet.

The British people have forgiven the Germans, Japanese, Italians, Spanish, etc., for things that happened in living memory. Maybe the British Regional Nationalists, should forgive the "English" for things that happened hundreds of years ago.

[Tel69]

I'm quite stunned by what I've just read!! I didn't know any of the history around this subject but even so for some idiot to hold a grudge over something that happened many many years ago is stupid. It had never occured to me that any Cornish People wouldn't consider themselves as English even though they are very much a part of our country.

[kimindex]

Originally Posted by clockworks999

I
The British people have forgiven the Germans, Japanese, Italians, Spanish, etc., for things that happened in living memory. Maybe the British Regional Nationalists, should forgive the "English" for things that happened hundreds of years ago.

I agree. There are pockets of nationalism and more of people interested in culture and language. There have been calls for devolution and even separate country status but it's a minority. There are people in the local councils who are quite nationalistic though and want to discourage incomers.

Please don't think I'm being anti-Cornish, because I'm not but when I lived down in West Cornwall I was bullied something chronic at school because I come from up-country..... Plymouth!!

[kimindex]

My mother had a cockney accident because her family moved to London when she was a child. She had a lot of comments about it, some that weren't meant to be a joke.

[tired]

Originally Posted by clockworks999

The British people have forgiven the Germans, Japanese, Italians, Spanish, etc., for things that happened in living memory. Maybe the British Regional Nationalists, should forgive the "English" for things that happened hundreds of years ago.

It does seem that there are people who thrive on bitterness and resentment, almost one of the few things that give their life meaning. If there isn't enough it the present, they go digging as far as it takes in the distant past.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Originally Posted by kimindex

<<<I write to register my dismay upon seeing the design of the flower bed on Eastern Green at the entrance to Penzance - this being a representation of St George's Cross, which is an offensive symbol to a great many Cornish people.

I am further dismayed that Penwith District Council should have seen fit to expend public money - much of it Cornish money - on this blatant show of English nationalism on Cornish soil.

Perhaps Penwith Council wanted to plant a cornish flag.... but couldn't find any black flowers!

Perhaps the extreme Cornish (and Scottish) nationalists should remember who subsidises their parts of the UK!

[tally]

Originally Posted by Toxteth O'Grady

Perhaps Penwith Council wanted to plant a cornish flag.... but couldn't find any black flowers!

Perhaps the extreme Cornish (and Scottish) nationalists should remember who subsidises their parts of the UK!

LOL

Actually it's the EU.

We are the only place in England to have Objective 1 status and the subsequent grants.

Even though the flaming idiots dont know how to spend it.

We are a single industry county....TOURISM. Without holiday makers we'd be well and truly stuffed.

[kimindex]

I agree. Tourists are needed and wanted by most people!

[kimindex]

Originally Posted by tired

It does seem that there are people who thrive on bitterness and resentment, almost one of the few things that give their life meaning. If there isn't enough it the present, they go digging as far as it takes in the distant past.

Yes, I reckon some people love a grievance. It's far enough of there is still oppression and Cornwall is not a rich county but the house prices are high which lends itself to resentment but I don't think the English can be blamed. House prices in places like London are far higher. I thought Cornwall was very insular when I grew up here in the 70s in a different part of Cornwall but I think it's changed for the better in that regard, having moved back fairly recently.

What's that phrase - 'it's being so miserable that keeps her going' and 'he's never so happy as when he's miserable'.

[lemonbun]

Originally Posted by kimindex

Yes, I reckon some people love a grievance. It's far enough of there is still oppression and Cornwall is not a rich county but the house prices are high which lends itself to resentment but I don't think the English can be blamed. House prices in places like London are far higher. I thought Cornwall was very insular when I grew up here in the 70s in a different part of Cornwall but I think it's changed for the better in that regard, having moved back fairly recently.

What's that phrase - 'it's being so miserable that keeps her going' and 'he's never so happy as when he's miserable'.

I'm only going on memory, but when I used to go to Cornwall on holiday in the early 80's, the house prices then seemed way out of line with the average income for the county. In those days, I would assume that second home ownership was much less than today and would not be wholly responsible for the level high then. People buying retirement homes could have been responsible, but it's something that always surprised me.

[lofichic]

Originally Posted by tally

Personally I find referring to it as "The Cornish Holocaust" is distasteful and deeply insulting to anyone who suffered during The Shoah.

While I think the letter writer is stirring tensions about ancient history, and disagree with his stand point, the Holocaust of WWII is neither the first or the last holocaust to have happened, unfortunately.

I believe the Cornish Holocaust has been referred to as such long before the 1930s onwards, and resulted in the mass killing of thousands of Cornishmen, women and children.

Holocaust is an Ancient Greek term meaning something along the lines of to burn with fire.

[lofichic]

Originally Posted by tally

LOL

We are the only place in England to have Objective 1 status and the subsequent grants.

The only place, as long as Cornwall is made up of South Yorkshire and Merseyside as well :P

[tally]

Originally Posted by lofichic

The only place, as long as Cornwall is made up of South Yorkshire and Merseyside as well :P

Really? *Get's on the web to check*.

Sorry, it's what our local News keeps telling us.

Very embarrassed now.

[Joe'sgirl]

Originally Posted by kimindex

My mother had a cockney accident because her family moved to London when she was a child. She had a lot of comments about it, some that weren't meant to be a joke.

My husband during the war got picked on at school when they moved from Manchester to Devon, when his Dad was in the Marines. They did not like his Northern accent. He also lived in Dorset and North Devon later, where they said the same.

When he finally went back to Manchester, THEY picked on him 'cos he had a West country accent.

I guess for the rabble you have to be "uniform": Being different is a no-no.

[Joe'sgirl]

Originally Posted by kimindex

Yes, I reckon some people love a grievance. It's far enough of there is still oppression and Cornwall is not a rich county but the house prices are high which lends itself to resentment but I don't think the English can be blamed. House prices in places like London are far higher. I thought Cornwall was very insular when I grew up here in the 70s in a different part of Cornwall but I think it's changed for the better in that regard, having moved back fairly recently.

What's that phrase - 'it's being so miserable that keeps her going' and 'he's never so happy as when he's miserable'.

Well I can get up a head of steam about London house buyers, as they hike up the prices where ever they go and p*ss in everyone else's pond. No one else can compete once they start buying into an area.

I have also had some extremely unnecessary remarks made about my northern roots - by cockneys - who somehow seemed to think that hailing from the nations' capital makes 'em sorta special: better than the rest of us. Altho' that is certainly not every Londoner I have met, just a rather irritating portion!!

[tally]

Originally Posted by lofichic

The only place, as long as Cornwall is made up of South Yorkshire and Merseyside as well :P

Oops, you're right. Apologies.


Aint t'interwebby great? I learn something new every day.


*waves to JG*

[Joe'sgirl]

Originally Posted by tally

Oops, you're right. Apologies.


Aint t'interwebby great? I learn something new every day.


*waves to JG*

*Waves back*

[lofichic]

Originally Posted by tally

Really? *Get's on the web to check*.

Sorry, it's what our local News keeps telling us.

Very embarrassed now.

It's those Cornish lies being spread again... Next they'll be telling you King Arthur came from Tintagel.

We all know he climbed out a gutter in Doncaster...

[kimindex]

Originally Posted by Joe'sgirl

Well I can get up a head of steam about London house buyers, as they hike up the prices where ever they go and p*ss in everyone else's pond. No one else can compete once they start buying into an area.

I have also had some extremely unnecessary remarks made about my northern roots - by cockneys - who somehow seemed to think that hailing from the nations' capital makes 'em sorta special: better than the rest of us. Altho' that is certainly not every Londoner I have met, just a rather irritating portion!!

When we bought a house here, we had to pay the price asked for it. We didn't have a choice in the matter. We didn't say we used to live in London so can we pay more and inflate the house prices, please. Every house we looked at was being sold by a Cornish person. The housing situation in London is far worse and houses/flats far more expensive than anywhere else and most people aren't paid that much more to make up for it.

And I've been called a Southern softie and similar by many a Northern person, as if coming from the South means that you've automatically had an easier life or are in some way weaker and less 'fake' and they meant it too! It works all ways.

[clockworks999]

Originally Posted by kimindex

When we bought a house here, we had to pay the price asked for it. We didn't have a choice in the matter. We didn't say we used to live in London so can we pay more and inflate the house prices, please. Every house we looked at was being sold by a Cornish person. The housing situation in London is far worse and houses/flats far more expensive than anywhere else and most people aren't paid that much more to make up for it.

And I've been called a Southern softie and similar by many a Northern person, as if coming from the South means that you've automatically had an easier life or are in some way weaker and less 'fake' and they meant it too! It works all ways.

Absolutely right about the prices. Us incomers buy our houses from Cornish people, and other Cornish people moan that we are pushing the prices up. They conveniently forget that it's the original Cornish owners who are raking in the cash, not us.

The real culprits are the local councils, and their restrictive planning rules. They'd rather see an old church, chapel, engine house or factory stand empty than have it converted to a dwelling. Eventually they give in, when a developer can make them a very good offer, but it can take 10 years or more.

Us incomers are buying all the sub-standard, damp, cottages (romantic idea that a granite cottage with an open fire would be a nice place to live), while the Cornish sellers rub their hand with glee, and move into their nice new, centrally heated and draught-proof, homes.