[kriss57]

MOOX, after all your shouting about how good Zen is and how bad Tiscali is, when you read the whole article from the other thread posted, that is "Britains Broadband Market in Chaos", it appears that Zen is not much better than Tiscali, just a lot dearer, and just as prone to exaggeration as all the others

[moox]

Originally Posted by kriss57

MOOX, after all your shouting about how good Zen is and how bad Tiscali is, when you read the whole article from the other thread posted, that is "Britains Broadband Market in Chaos", it appears that Zen is not much better than Tiscali, just a lot dearer, and just as prone to exaggeration as all the others

You could've PMed me. (unless your intention is to let everyone see it)

I would not base an ISP based on an article.

And explain how Zen is so poor? I don't see Zen customers pouring their hearts out on ADSLguide because their speeds are like dialup, support is useless, as well as the other numerous faults that Tiscali have.

You do see, however, Tiscali users moaning about how incompetant Tiscali are as an ISP. The general consensus is that Tiscali are to be avoided.

So, I won't believe that Zen are just as bad as Tiscali - they aren't. Tiscali are in a league of their own.

http://www.dslzoneuk.co.uk/isp_ratings.php
Interesting how Zen are one of the top, Tiscali are close to the bottom.

http://www.adslguide.org.uk/isps/com...action=Compare
Worlds of difference.

It really says something when AOL are outperforming Tiscali

[kriss57]

Moox, you missed the point, even Zen conceeded that during peak usage even their customers would likely only reach 2Mb, and that is if you are on the "up to 8 Mb" and that is on your ZEN website now as well, just in case. The point I was making, was the whole article was about how ALL ISP's talk up their products, and with this in mind it was clear that ZEN was no different to any other ISP because they admitted bigging up their download speeds.

Also I have just tested mine at 1.82Mb which at this time on a 2Mb is pretty good, I doubt if yours is any better at two or three times my price. I will admit that your Customer Service is probably better than mine and thats about it.

Come on Moox own up, if you done a survey on here you would not find that many Zen users because of the price probably.

[moox]

Originally Posted by kriss57

Moox, you missed the point, even Zen conceeded that during peak usage even their customers would likely only reach 2Mb, and that is if you are on the "up to 8 Mb" and that is on your ZEN website now as well, just in case. The point I was making, was the whole article was about how ALL ISP's talk up their products, and with this in mind it was clear that ZEN was no different to any other ISP because they admitted bigging up their download speeds.

Also I have just tested mine at 1.82Mb which at this time on a 2Mb is pretty good, I doubt if yours is any better at two or three times my price. I will admit that your Customer Service is probably better than mine and thats about it.

Come on Moox own up, if you done a survey on here you would not find that many Zen users because of the price probably.

The difference between Zen(and AOL, BT, Nildram, Demon, pretty much everyone bar Tesco, NTL freedom, Tiscali and any LLU operator) 8Mbit and Tiscali 8Mbit is this:

Zen use IPstream. BT have a massive (though not very) virtual pipe from every exchange for the data on every IPstream customer on every IPstream ISP to go through.

With maxdsl there is more demand on this pipe, hence slower speeds in the evenings. This affects everyone on the exchange on an IPstream service on any ISP bar the ones I have said at the same time. (NOTE BT - NO ISP HAS CONTROL OVER THIS PIPE)

With Tiscali, however, they have their own virtual pipe for their customers (Datastream). While this can be good (like Demon offer uncontended ADSL for £expensive a month this way), it isn't. Tiscali choose to overload their pipes far more than BT do = dialup speeds.

With Tiscali 8Mbit, this gets worse. I believe the size of the pipe they use is 10Mbit. So, if you have one 8Mbit customer and one 2Mbit customer or two 1Mbit customers etc that will work out. However there will be more than two or three tiscali customers on an exchange. If some choose to get 8Mbit then the dialup speeds will be replaced with lower-than-dialup speeds.

I hope that clears up why Tiscali are useless.

[CurlyWhirly]

Originally Posted by kriss57

even Zen conceeded that during peak usage even their customers would likely only reach 2Mb

All BT Max services are restricted in this way and the only way to avoid this congestion is to go for LLU or cable if they are available in your exchange.

[moox]

... except Tiscali (and NTL freedom, Tesco and other Datastream ISPs)..

Read my last post.

[kriss57]

While I totally accept a lot of your points, both of you miss the point that even ZEN was guilty of exaggerating its download speeds, and when push comes to shove your speeds at busy times are in fact no better or worse than most other ISP's, including mine with Tiscali. Moox and Curly Whirly are happy with ZEN, and most people are happy with the one they are with, including me with Tiscali. I do not do P2P, I only do a small amount of downloading and some football streaming, for me Tiscali is exactly right for what I want at this moment, and at a great price. It is also only a half or a third of the price you are paying, and if you believe what you read then ZEN will not survive in its present form anyway. Because of all the cut throat price war going on, only the strong will survive, ZEN will either go to the wall, or be bought out by a bigger concern. Remember you heard it here first. Anymore ZEN customers on here please chip in by all means we have two so far. The difference between us is I do not rubbish other people opinions, if someone is happy with whatever they have purchased, then I am very happy for them.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by kriss57

While I totally accept a lot of your points, both of you miss the point that even ZEN was guilty of exaggerating its download speeds, and when push comes to shove your speeds at busy times are in fact no better or worse than most other ISP's, including Tiscali. Moox and Curly Whirly are happy with Zen, and most people are happy with the one they are with, including me with Tiscali............

Zen advertise "up to 8M" - how is that misleading ? The 30MPH speed limit means that you can drive "up to 30MPH", but only an idiot would assume that you can only drive at 30MPH ! The speed that you get with any ADSL ISP is affected by many factors - including your individual line length, and the contention factor (how many people you are sharing your ADSL feed with). You can pay extra for lower contention feeds with many ISP's, including Zen.

The quality of an ISP isn't just about how well your ADSL performs - it's also about how good the ISP's customer service is. I was originally with Pipex, and for a couple of years I had no problems, and it was only when I had some line and some billing problems, I discovered just how dire their customer services is. That's when I switched to Zen, and Zen's customer services are so good, they are in a different league altogether.

[kriss57]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

Zen advertise "up to 8M" - how is that misleading ? The 30MPH speed limit means that you can drive "up to 30MPH", but only an idiot would assume that you can only drive at 30MPH ! The speed that you get with any ADSL ISP is affected by many factors - including your individual line length, and the contention factor (how many people you are sharing your ADSL feed with). You can pay extra for lower contention feeds with many ISP's, including Zen.

The quality of an ISP isn't just about how well your ADSL performs - it's also about how good the ISP's customer service is. I was originally with Pipex, and for a couple of years I had no problems, and it was only when I had some line and some billing problems, I discovered just how dire their customer services is. That's when I switched to Zen, and Zen's customer services are so good, they are in a different league altogether.

I have never disputed that Zen may or may not be a good ISP, I was just pointing out to MOOX and people like yourself that in the article first mentioned, ZEN had to start admitting its "busy period" speeds were no better or worse than other ISP's. I made no reference to quality, customer services, or anything else. If you are happy paying for ZEN, then I am very happy for you. Three ZEN customers now. How great would it be if Tiscali bought out ZEN.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by kriss57

I have never disputed that Zen may or may not be a good ISP, I was just pointing out to MOOX and people like yourself that in the article first mentioned, ZEN had to start admitting its "busy period" speeds were no better or worse than other ISP's. I made no reference to quality, customer services, or anything else. If you are happy paying for ZEN, then I am very happy for you. Three ZEN customers now.

I don't see your point about "ZEN had to start admitting its "busy period" speeds were no better or worse than other ISP's" ?

ADSL is a contended service - it means that you share bandwidth with everyone else on your circuit. That is the same for ALL ADSL ISP's. Why should anyone assume that Zen would be any different ? If you want a guaranteed download speed, with no contention, then a leased line is your only option, now that ISDN has been withdrawn.

[kriss57]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

I don't see your point about "ZEN had to start admitting its "busy period" speeds were no better or worse than other ISP's" ?

ADSL is a contended service - it means that you share bandwidth with everyone else on your circuit. That is the same for ALL ADSL ISP's. Why should anyone assume that Zen would be any different ? If you want a guaranteed download speed, with no contention, then a leased line is your only option, now that ISDN has been withdrawn.

It was to make people aware that if you listen to some people on here the way they give it large about their own ISP and rubbish other peoples, that sometimes these outbursts come back to haunt you. I have always said that I like Tiscali but their customer service is rubbish, I am with them, what you will not hear from me is me rubbish one that I am not with, they may have changed anything may have happened, and everyones view of the same may be diiferent. Tiscali to buy ZEN?

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by kriss57

It was to make people aware that if you listen to some people on here the way they give it large about their own ISP and rubbish other peoples, that sometimes these outbursts come back to haunt you. I have always said that I like Tiscali but their customer service is rubbish, I am with them, what you will not hear from me is me rubbish one that I am not with, they may have changed anything may have happened, and everyones view of the same may be diiferent.

Since the customer service is part of what you pay for, then you are not getting good value for money, even though you may not have had to use the CS. I left Pipex for Zen for the same reason - good ADSL service, rubbish customer services. And if you think customer service isn't important, wait until you get a problem !

[kriss57]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

Since the customer service is part of what you pay for, then you are not getting good value for money, even though you may not have had to use the CS. I left Pipex for Zen for the same reason - good ADSL service, rubbish customer services. And if you think customer service isn't important, wait until you get a problem !

I have had a few minor problems who hasn't, and all have been sorted to my satisfaction, which is exactly the reason I am still with them, it is not a money thing, I have managed to have a good service over quite a long period. Read these boards long enough and there are complaints about every ISP, the trouble very few come back and post the final results, did they move, did it get sorted or what? Anyway ZEN CS could be rubbish the very next time you want to use it, how do you know.

[x-p-d]

Originally Posted by moox

http://www.dslzoneuk.co.uk/isp_ratings.php
Interesting how Zen are one of the top, Tiscali are close to the bottom.

http://www.adslguide.org.uk/isps/com...action=Compare
Worlds of difference.

It really says something when AOL are outperforming Tiscali

I dont think you should read too far into those stats. Stats can be read in so many different ways, it is sometimes unfair or biased to various outcomes

Zen could give an average service to it's customers, yet have fewer customers than Tiscali.

How many people have BT broadband for example? quite a lot! and how many of those customers who get a great service go to ADSL guide and complain? not very many!

If you've got no problems with your broadband you would be less inclined to post a negative; if any comment.

Do you see what i'm saying here?

There are too many non and user-defined variables for any statistical pie chart to give a fair view of the entire spectrum of broadband.

Line speed, line quality, line length, copper quality, connection type, exchange type/speed/configuration, PC specs, modem/router type, modem/router firmware, modem/router connection type, web browser type, web browser configuration, OS type, networking card/slot type/speed/quality - i could go on for hours.....

You should just be happy your not on 56k anymore.

[kriss57]

Originally Posted by x-p-d

I dont think you should read too far into those stats. Stats can be read in so many different ways, it is sometimes unfair or biased to various outcomes

Zen could give an average service to it's customers, yet have fewer customers than Tiscali.

How many people have BT broadband for example? quite a lot! and how many of those customers who get a great service go to ADSL guide and complain? not very many!

If you've got no problems with your broadband you would be less inclined to post a negative; if any comment.

Do you see what i'm saying here?

There are too many non and user-defined variables for any statistical pie chart to give a fair view of the entire spectrum of broadband.

Line speed, line quality, line length, copper quality, connection type, exchange type/speed/configuration, PC specs, modem/router type, modem/router firmware, modem/router connection type, web browser type, web browser configuration, OS type, networking card/slot type/speed/quality - i could go on for hours.....

You should just be happy your not on 56k anymore.

Sounds a bit too much like common sense for most on here.
I have said exactly the same for months, Tiscali has 1.1 million UK users and ZEN probably about 350 if you say that everyone who has got it votes on the adsl site. Percentage wise ZEN could have more complaints who is to know for sure.

[Cassini]

I'm a Zen customer and have been happy with them since March.

Customer service is excellent!

[kriss57]

Originally Posted by Cassini

I'm a Zen customer and have been happy with them since March.

Customer service is excellent!

I am a Tiscali customer for 2 years and still happy, so you have got some way to go yet, we have found 4 x ZEN customers in this thread, only another 346 to go.
P.S. If you have only been with them for 4/5 months how do you know their CS is so good, I hope not too many problems.

Moox you are online and very quiet.

[CurlyWhirly]

Originally Posted by kriss57

and if you believe what you read then ZEN will not survive in its present form anyway. Because of all the cut throat price war going on, only the strong will survive, ZEN will either go to the wall, or be bought out by a bigger concern. Remember you heard it here first.

Zen is primarily a business ISP so unless it's business customers migrate to the likes of Orange, Sky, etc. for the 'free' broadband services then Zen are quite safe!

[moox]

Originally Posted by x-p-d

I dont think you should read too far into those stats. Stats can be read in so many different ways, it is sometimes unfair or biased to various outcomes

Zen could give an average service to it's customers, yet have fewer customers than Tiscali.

How many people have BT broadband for example? quite a lot! and how many of those customers who get a great service go to ADSL guide and complain? not very many!

If you've got no problems with your broadband you would be less inclined to post a negative; if any comment.

Do you see what i'm saying here?

There are too many non and user-defined variables for any statistical pie chart to give a fair view of the entire spectrum of broadband.

Line speed, line quality, line length, copper quality, connection type, exchange type/speed/configuration, PC specs, modem/router type, modem/router firmware, modem/router connection type, web browser type, web browser configuration, OS type, networking card/slot type/speed/quality - i could go on for hours.....

You should just be happy your not on 56k anymore.

I agree that stats aren't the best way to go about things, however I feel that (especially the dslzoneuk stats - you can read individual comments) they are a good sample of how an ISP is.

Go and look at comments for EzeeDSL or Tiscali and Talktalk - not many people are pleased, if at all. Then go and read Zen/Newnet/Entanet - there will be some bad comments but mainly good.

The fact is, Tiscali (retail, I hear their wholesale effort isn't too bad) are really poor. You cannot factor in BT maxdsl problems as Tiscali don't have many 8Mbit customers yet and Tiscali have complete control over exchange contention, whereas just about every ISP does not.

At one time, Tiscali were pretty good. I had them for dialup once, when BT "free evenings and weekends" started giving us all these different numbers with constant engaged tones. Tiscali was excellent. However, they soon turned into the cesspit that they are today.

You just can't offer a decent 1/2/8Mbit service, unlimited, for £14/17.99 a month. It just doesn't work.

[moox]

Originally Posted by kriss57

I am a Tiscali customer for 2 years and still happy, so you have got some way to go yet, we have found 4 x ZEN customers in this thread, only another 346 to go.
P.S. If you have only been with them for 4/5 months how do you know their CS is so good, I hope not too many problems.

Moox you are online and very quiet.

I've been with them for over a year now, called their CS many times (all because of BT issues I must add). Every time they have been helpful, the phone answered quickly, by a person in Rochdale, and quickly sorted out.

Tiscali would never put you on hold to speak to BT Wholesale. Zen do.

(and as for Tiscali buying out Zen, there is more chance of the government pulling out of ID cards then that happening)

[kriss57]

Originally Posted by moox

(and as for Tiscali buying out Zen, there is more chance of the government pulling out of ID cards then that happening)

Both will happen, mark my words, ZEN may indeed be the best thing since sliced bread, but at their prices they will never survive, ask any expert in the field, only the biggest and cheapest will survive, you must realise that there are far far too many to all make money and carry on.
The vast number of people would never dream of paying your prices, you only have to look at the number of threads that you personally answer for "cheapest ISP" or something similar, very few people would pay the £45-£50 a month that you pay, very few could afford too. It is going to get even cheaper yet. I bet Zen will not be here in its present form in say 12-18 months, that is why you are on such a short contract.

[x-p-d]

Originally Posted by moox

I agree that stats aren't the best way to go about things, however I feel that (especially the dslzoneuk stats - you can read individual comments) they are a good sample of how an ISP is.

Go and look at comments for EzeeDSL or Tiscali and Talktalk - not many people are pleased, if at all. Then go and read Zen/Newnet/Entanet - there will be some bad comments but mainly good.

The fact is, Tiscali (retail, I hear their wholesale effort isn't too bad) are really poor. You cannot factor in BT maxdsl problems as Tiscali don't have many 8Mbit customers yet and Tiscali have complete control over exchange contention, whereas just about every ISP does not.

At one time, Tiscali were pretty good. I had them for dialup once, when BT "free evenings and weekends" started giving us all these different numbers with constant engaged tones. Tiscali was excellent. However, they soon turned into the cesspit that they are today.

You just can't offer a decent 1/2/8Mbit service, unlimited, for £14/17.99 a month. It just doesn't work.

I'm not disputing the quality of any broadband service here, just the statistics on some of these sites.

These sites allow multiple tests per user, so there is nothing stopping a disgruntled user from making 20 speed tests and clicking "1/10" for their experience; after all, the results on some sites are passed onto the respective ISP.

Whatever you may think, if an ISP has half the amount of users as another, this will definately show in the results. There should be an average customer satisfaction percentage - but then again, not every user of a certain ISP will go to that website and post their experience.

Basically, its totally flawed.

[x-p-d]

Originally Posted by kriss57

Both will happen, mark my words, ZEN may indeed be the best thing since sliced bread, but at their prices they will never survive, ask any expert in the field, only the biggest and cheapest will survive, you must realise that there are far far too many to all make money and carry on....

I expect only the current triple-play companies to be around in 7 years time; the others will either go under or be bought out.

[kriss57]

Originally Posted by x-p-d

I expect only the current triple-play companies to be around in 7 years time; the others will either go under or be bought out.

Exactly, but a lot less than 7 years, 18 months at most.

[x-p-d]

The market is totally over-satchurated; i cant think of any other home service with as many service providers as broadband internet.

I wonder if BT or NTL will come under the monopoly board if they try to buy back all the lines.....