[NeilPost]

Just been watching BBC Breakfast and thought the article about the survey showing the UK was perceived to be a much better place in the 1980's.

Thoughts

1. Lower crime
2. Respect for others
3. Being able to easily afford a house
4. Little Immigration
5. UK a member of the EEC, not the EU proto-state
6. No Tony Blair/Political Spin
7. Redundancy was a little used business tool
8. Business C*nt-sultants and Project Managers absent
9. Healthy School Dinners (topical )
10. No Chav's
11. No Big Brother !!!
12. No mobile phones (general population)
13. Tesco's was not a malevolent presence in UK society
14. People were still in awe of the world
15. The NHS/Home Office/Passport Office/DVLC etc had not been run into the ground by political monkeying around with them
16. Return on Investment was a tool, not a weapon.
17. Consumer Debt and credit cards largely absent


etc...


To summarise, the UK was a better place under Thatch than Tony Blair !!!

[Verence]

Originally Posted by NeilPost

Just been watching BBC Breakfast and thought the article about the survey showing the UK was perceived to be a much better place in the 1980's.

I think percieved is the operative term here

[rubberymonkey2]

LOL dont want to get into this (is it even real?) but I was at school in the 80's and it was chips every day, as well as stodgy puds so im not sure school meals were better and I dont think people were in awe of the world, it was a cynical time.

However TV was better

[northern sky]

You forgot to add

Massive unemployment to that list.


No the 80's were nowhere near as good as things are now.

[NeilPost]

Originally Posted by northern sky

You forgot to add

Massive unemployment to that list.


No the 80's were nowhere near as good as things are now.

Sorry, and massive state subsidy to inefficient industries to keep them going 'as is', rather than rebuilding them for the future. The outcome of this can still being felt today.
British Leyland became Rover
Chrysler bought by Peugeot
Everything now is made in pretty much China

Also you has shops called butchers, bakers, grocers everywhere. Now it's £5.50/hr in Tesco's.

[Cstar2229]

1. Lower crime
2. Respect for others - more than there is now
3. Being able to easily afford a house - they seemed cheaper but in proportion to wages they were still expensive. You also got tax relief on mortgages too but it got frozen at £30000.
4. Little Immigration
5. UK a member of the EEC, not the EU proto-state
6. No Tony Blair/Political Spin - May 1 1997 was the day our bad luck started
7. Redundancy was a little used business tool
8. Business C*nt-sultants and Project Managers absent - the mid 80s started that trend in London and spred.
9. Healthy School Dinners (topical ) - wasn't at school
10. No Chav's - there were less, there have always been nuisance people.
11. No Big Brother !!! - Yes
12. No mobile phones (general population) - the ones who had the carphones were rather up themselves
13. Tesco's was not a malevolent presence in UK society - no Sainsbury's was
14. People were still in awe of the world - the world was bigger
15. The NHS/Home Office/Passport Office/DVLC etc had not been run into the ground by political monkeying around with them
16. Return on Investment was a tool, not a weapon.
17. Consumer Debt and credit cards largely absent

The early 80s were nicer, it was the yuppies and mid 80s the rot set in.

[rubberymonkey2]

Originally Posted by NeilPost

Sorry, and massive state subsidy to inefficient industries to keep them going 'as is', rather than rebuilding them for the future. The outcome of this can still being felt today.
British Leyland became Rover
Chrysler bought by Peugeot
Everything now is made in pretty much China

Also you has shops called butchers, bakers, grocers everywhere. Now it's £5.50/hr in Tesco's.

Well if people actually used the bakers, butchers etc they would still be here. My dad was a baker all his life but in 2004 his little bakery went bust, thanks to the supermarkets. People say to him "oh its a shame I loved your bread" yet they didnt fuc*ing go to his bakery did they, because Tesco was 5p cheaper. Dont just blame Tesco blame the public for allowing them to get so damn big in the first place.

[Phil 2804]

Originally Posted by northern sky

You forgot to add

Massive unemployment to that list.


No the 80's were nowhere near as good as things are now.

Neccessary evil to get Britain out of its terminal economic crisis of the 60s and 1970s.

If her predecessors had had the guts to stand up to the unions it might have been avoided as new industries could have been developed before the plug was pulled on the old ones.

As it was they did not and the Thatcher Government was faced with a country nearly bankrupt, plowing billions into industries that were already long dead (coal mining), and being run by an old boys network.

I fully believe people were happier under Thatcher, its certainly the experince of people like my parents family etc, that Thatcher with her Right to Buy, share ownership etc, rewarded people who worked for themselves.

While my mother, and NHS nurse for over 30 years will hapilly tell you the NHS was better under Thatcher than at any other time, as she tamed the unions who caused devastating strikes in the service and didn't use it as a political tool like New Labour.

[clac]

oops read it again ignore

[rubberymonkey2]

Thatchers biggest success was the taming of the unions. i thankfully dont remember the 70's too well but my parents do. They both voted for Thatcher in 79 because they felt Labour was being held to ransom by the unions, they did in later years feel Thatcher had outstayed her welcome though.

However my auntie worked in the NHS until she retired in 2002. She does not share the same opinion as your mother. She actully felt things had imporved in her hospital in the mid to late 90's under Major and Blair.

[NeilPost]

Originally Posted by Phil 2804

Neccessary evil to get Britain out of its terminal economic crisis of the 60s and 1970s.

If her predecessors had had the guts to stand up to the unions it might have been avoided as new industries could have been developed before the plug was pulled on the old ones.

As it was they did not and the Thatcher Government was faced with a country nearly bankrupt, plowing billions into industries that were already long dead (coal mining), and being run by an old boys network.

I fully believe people were happier under Thatcher, its certainly the experince of people like my parents family etc, that Thatcher with her Right to Buy, share ownership etc, rewarded people who worked for themselves.

While my mother, and NHS nurse for over 30 years will hapilly tell you the NHS was better under Thatcher than at any other time, as she tamed the unions who caused devastating strikes in the service and didn't use it as a political tool like New Labour.

Look at America. Massive electroncis/defence/aviation business. The UK had the same until it was pissed away by successive governments in the 60's/70's and by the time Thatch came to power it was too late.

UK - British Aerospace - US - Boeing/ Lockheed Martin etc
UK - Amstrad, Alba Group, Marconi - US - Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco, Lucent

[Cstar2229]

Originally Posted by rubberymonkey2

Thatchers biggest success was the taming of the unions. i thankfully dont remember the 70's too well but my parents do. They both voted for Thatcher in 79 because they felt Labour was being held to ransom by the unions, they did in later years feel Thatcher had outstayed her welcome though.

However my auntie worked in the NHS until she retired in 2002. She does not share the same opinion as your mother. She actully felt things had imporved in her hospital in the mid to late 90's under Major and Blair.

I was around in the 70s and the country was in a dreadful state. Taxation was dreadful and most people seemed poor. There were strikes galore and the early 70s reminded my parents of war times when there were shortages and power cuts. Admittedly, there was more community spirit and less crime but people were far more narrow minded.

Although, I didn't agree with everything Thatcher/Major stood for, she really turned this country around from the mess our country had become in the late 70s. I admit the infighting in the mid 90s made the Tories lose some credibility and they did tax utilities and flying which wasn't popular.

After Blair got in, I really hoped they would be a better party than before, as in the beginning, they seemed different to the 70s Labour but it didn't take long for them to 'back door' tax and erode the country bit by bit.

We are seeing shades of how it was in the 70s under Blair. Low interest rates are the only difference these days which has fuelled the housing market but pensions and investments are pants as a result. Labour haven't dropped the taxes the Tories bought in either.

The sooner Labour go the better, they are dreadful. I am really worried how it will be when Blair goes (he isn't that great), as Brown and Prescott are more like the Labour Party in the 70s.

[rubberymonkey2]

This survey doenst surpisre me. Most people are pissed off with Blair at the moment and want him out. These people wrongly assume nobody wanted Blair in the first place, ignoring a 179, 166 and even 66 majority, Blairs majority now is more than Thatcher had in 1979, but people want to ignore all that.

However im sure in 2026 we will see a survey saying life was better in 2006 when we had Polish workers doing all the crap job, the NHS wasnt private, we were still all passive smokers and Prime Minister Adam Rickett hadnt got us involved in a war in some far off land because he was sucking up to President Chelsea Clinton!

[kimindex]

Thatcherism was the cause of the 'me, me, me' attitude to a large extent (it did of course exist before).

There were inner city riots, the Cold War, massive unemployment whilst people in the City (where I worked in the 80s and 90s and the some of it wasn't a pretty sight in the mid-80s) earned massive amounts after Big Bang. (I wasn't one of those who earned the big bucks but I certainly learned a lot and it was quite an experience).

Society was completely polarised, Thatcher's government actually introduced discriminatory laws, did not support action against apartheid SA, bought votes by selling off public companies, decided the ONLY way to deal with the unions was by crushing them, destroyed industry, there was Black Wednesday, the ERM fiasco, scandals way beyond anything this government has done, despite what people might say (although fat cattism and cronyism is definitely creeping in way too much), introduced the free market into the NHS.....

As for debt, there was negative equity which clobbered me for a very long time.

And I like Big Brother.

[rubberymonkey2]

Originally Posted by Cstar2229

I was around in the 70s and the country was in a dreadful state. Taxation was dreadful and most people seemed poor. There were strikes galore and the early 70s reminded my parents of war times when there were shortages and power cuts. Admittedly, there was more community spirit and less crime but people were far more narrow minded.

Although, I didn't agree with everything Thatcher/Major stood for, she really turned this country around from the mess our country had become in the late 70s. I admit the infighting in the mid 90s made the Tories lose some credibility and they did tax utilities and flying which wasn't popular.

After Blair got in, I really hoped they would be a better party than before, as in the beginning, they seemed different to the 70s Labour but it didn't take long for them to 'back door' tax and erode the country bit by bit.

We are seeing shades of how it was in the 70s under Blair. Low interest rates are the only difference these days which has fuelled the housing market but pensions and investments are pants as a result. Labour haven't dropped the taxes the Tories bought in either.

The sooner Labour go the better, they are dreadful. I am really worried how it will be when Blair goes (he isn't that great), as Brown and Prescott are more like the Labour Party in the 70s.

Sadly I cant see "new" Conservatives doing a much better job either. I cannot decide who to support if there was an election today. However I still cant write Labour off just yet. The Tories arent making enough ground. I think the next election will be a lot closer than any anti Blair/Brown voter thinks it will.

I do think Thatcher gets a raw deal. She did some great things as Prime Minister and I would rank er as the greatest Prime Minister of the 20th century, even over Churchill who without the war I think wouldnt have done a great job. Thatcher's problem was like Blairs, staying on too long. They wouldnt have won the 92 election with Thatcher in charge yet she couldnt see that.

[akrigg]

Originally Posted by Phil 2804

Neccessary evil to get Britain out of its terminal economic crisis of the 60s and 1970s.

If her predecessors had had the guts to stand up to the unions it might have been avoided as new industries could have been developed before the plug was pulled on the old ones.

As it was they did not and the Thatcher Government was faced with a country nearly bankrupt, plowing billions into industries that were already long dead (coal mining), and being run by an old boys network.

I fully believe people were happier under Thatcher, its certainly the experince of people like my parents family etc, that Thatcher with her Right to Buy, share ownership etc, rewarded people who worked for themselves.

While my mother, and NHS nurse for over 30 years will hapilly tell you the NHS was better under Thatcher than at any other time, as she tamed the unions who caused devastating strikes in the service and didn't use it as a political tool like New Labour.

Whether or not it was a "necessary evil" is completely irrelevant.

Millions were unemployed, the miners strike and inner city riots were hugely socially damaging.

The people affected really weren't sitting round thinking - well, times may be bad but its all in a good cause so there's lots to be cheerful about.

Some people were happier in the 80s, some weren't. But you can bet everything you own that a similar study in the 1980s would have shown that people thought that things were better in the 1960s - its virtually part of human nature that people look back and remember the good times.

[Phil 2804]

Originally Posted by NeilPost

Look at America. Massive electroncis/defence/aviation business. The UK had the same until it was pissed away by successive governments in the 60's/70's and by the time Thatch came to power it was too late.

UK - British Aerospace - US - Boeing/ Lockheed Martin etc
UK - Amstrad, Alba Group, Marconi - US - Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco, Lucent

Lets not forget that in later years the Thatcher and Major governments gave billions to help new industries become established in the UK.

No government ever follows an economic policy that mass unemployemt unless its absolutely certain its in the vital interests of the country to do so. Ultimately it was in the case of Britain at the turn of the 80s.

As for the old chestnut- mining, a million jobs were shed between 1945 and 1979, before Thatcher came to power, in numbers terms there were actually fewer redundancies in the mines under Thatcher than any of her post-war counterparts.

Also her ire was not just directed at the unions, she was just as happy berating the CBI and other business leaders, who had lost any will to develop their businesses.

That is why she was so keen to support those who went into business for themselves, as in her mind they were the future economic prosperity of the counrty. She has been proved right- Vodaphone is a good example.

[Sloopy]

I think overall, it probably was. And you can't blame people for feeling this way, because Blair is such an arse and everybody is sick of him.

Britain still felt like it was 'Britain' then, not just part of an EU superstate. What's left that is 'British' now? All the companies are being sold off, for a start.

There also wasn't the explosion in the 'blame/compensation culture' either. People would just get up and get on with it, now if somebody so much as trips over they're calling in the lawyers.

[babeegirl]

Originally Posted by NeilPost

Now it's £5.50/hr in Tesco's.

Not to be picky or anything ....but its £6 an hour in tesco

[Phil 2804]

Originally Posted by rubberymonkey2

I do think Thatcher gets a raw deal. She did some great things as Prime Minister and I would rank er as the greatest Prime Minister of the 20th century, even over Churchill who without the war I think wouldnt have done a great job. Thatcher's problem was like Blairs, staying on too long. They wouldnt have won the 92 election with Thatcher in charge yet she couldnt see that.

Her biggest mistake and her ultimate downfall was the Poll Tax but not in the way people think. The riots orchestrated by Socialist Worker etc did not do the damage as much as they would like to think.

What did the damage was Tory MPs being faced with elderly couples sobbing in their surgeries because they were faced with astronomical Poll Tax bills.

Under the rates system the burden was on property and business owners. The Tories (rightly) thought it was fairer to have a system where every household made a contribution to local services and so devised a flat tax for each adult to pay.

In theory it seemed a good idea in practice it was a disaster.

Where one household might have paid £500 on the rates system, now they were faced with bills over £1000 because each adult paid seperately - The Poll Tax.

The people it affected most were Thatchers first time home owners and the elderly- the very people who had bought wholesale into the Thatcher dream.

Faced with the realisation they had betrayed their core support and a PM who refused to back down, the Party had to get rid of her.

Its no conincidence Major's first major policy was the abandonment of the Poll Tax.

[rubberymonkey2]

Originally Posted by Phil 2804

Her biggest mistake and her ultimate downfall was the Poll Tax but not in the way people think. The rights orchestrated by Socialist Worker etc did not do the damage as much as they would like to think.

What did the damage was Tory MPs being faced with elderly couples sobbing in their surgeries because they were faced with astronomical Poll Tax bills.

Under the rates system the burden was on property and business owners. The Tories (rightly) thought it was fairer to have a system where every household made a contribution to local services and so devised a flat tax for each adult to pay.

In theory it seemed a good idea in practice it was a disaster.

Where one household might have paid £500 on the rates system, now they were faced with bills over £1000 because each adult paid seperately - The Poll Tax.

The people it affected most were Thatchers first time home owners and the elderly- the very people who had bought wholesale into the Thatcher dream.

Faced with the realisation they had betrayed their core support and a PM who refused to back down, the Party had to get rid of her.

Its no conincidence Major's first major policy was the abandonment of the Poll Tax.

Of course it has come out since that she was warned the Poll Tax (or Community Charge as she likes to call it) was going to be a disaster, but Thatcher was never moved by her cabinet, she made all the decisions to the point where she didnt actually need a cabinet at all. The Poll Tax and Miners strike is all she seems to be remembered for these days, oh and her love of Pinnochet and hatred of Madela, but she did do a lot of good. All prime ministers are remembered for the bad things they do!

As for Blair i remember people being sick of him in 2005 yet he was returned with a reduced but still large majority, why was that? I still believe Labour could scrape home next time. Everyone thought Labour would win in 92, even most Tories yet the Tories scrapped back in, and of course the Murdoch press arent overly impressed with Cameron yet either!

[Cstar2229]

Originally Posted by rubberymonkey2

Sadly I cant see "new" Conservatives doing a much better job either. I cannot decide who to support if there was an election today. However I still cant write Labour off just yet. The Tories arent making enough ground. I think the next election will be a lot closer than any anti Blair/Brown voter thinks it will.

I do think Thatcher gets a raw deal. She did some great things as Prime Minister and I would rank er as the greatest Prime Minister of the 20th century, even over Churchill who without the war I think wouldnt have done a great job. Thatcher's problem was like Blairs, staying on too long. They wouldnt have won the 92 election with Thatcher in charge yet she couldnt see that.

It is sad that the Tories can't get a credible party together but with Blair about to stand down (there are calls for him to) I dread Brown being in charge

[trash80]

lower crime? i seem to recall in the early 80s people were terrified of leaving their front doors for fear of crime, going out at night was a definate no-no and burgularies were far more common

[slowtime monday]

Originally Posted by Cstar2229

12. No mobile phones (general population) - the ones who had the carphones were rather up themselves

But that is down to technology - people who can afford modern technology when it is brand-new are always a bit up themsevles - people with the equivantent new technology today are too!

I can remember in the late 70's/early 80's there was only one actual phone in our entire street - and when we had a phone installed it was on a party line!

Things that we think are pie in the sky now, in 20 years will be as matter of fact as e-mails and mobile phones are to us now. If you had said to those of us who where merrily playing with our ZX81's and Spectrums (those with the Commador 64's were also a bit uppity!) in the early 80's that things would progress as far as the x-box in such a short space of time we would have been

[123immy]

In the supposedly better '80s we would all have been writing letters in to the papers, to have them editorialised before printing. The net has changed completely the way we discuss & understand issues. It has also empowered 'unfashionable' groups like disabled, over 60s, to get their needs met.

Lower crime? Lower perception of crime perhaps. People now have higher expectations and report more crime. Kids having expensive goods has massively pushed up streetcrime, accepted. Respect for people was lost in the 80s, which surely has to be the most materialistic decade in recent years. We've only just managed to turn the corner. Branding and marketing may just take a back seat in the coming years.

There would be no economic immigration if we had all of our skills gaps plugged. non economic migration is now just a trickle...most of the more recent immigration from Eastern Europe is great - we get loads of trades, payment of taxes, NI etc and no pensions to pay down the line. People may disagree with purely on emotive terms, but looking at it from a purely economic point of view, there's no choice. Grads from the uk will happily go to Oz to pick bananas and work in warehouses, but they're not going to do it in their own back yard.