Why do I need 2 digiboxes to record Freeview? - Freeview

Snail · 17-11-2006, 17:35

I thought I would share my experience of the developing TV environment in an attempt to help some who are finding the whole Digital thing daunting. I’ll try to avoid too much jargon and this is not meant, by any means, to be a definitive explanation, so apologies up front for any incorrect technical terminology.

When I started watching TV there were two channels and they were in black and white. I think switching channels required the turning of a tuning dial, but I can’t be certain as this was not a task entrusted to a child. I also seem to recall the aerial being an external one shaped like a large X on the roof.

The next development I recall was the addition of a third channel at about the same time as a switch was made from 405 lines to 625. The TV changed with the tuning method switching to pressing in a button pre-tuned to the frequency required, from a choice of about 6 or 8. Also the roof mounted aerial was changed to a horizontal multi-element one similar to those used today. During this period I believe my parents rented the TV as there was talk of continuous improvements and changes in technology which would necessitate frequent changes to the TV, added to which the cost of a TV as a percentage of take home pay then was considerable and far fewer families appeared to be able to afford an outright purchase compared to today.

Then came colour, by which time I was allowed near the TV to adjust it when required, a primitive form of remote control

. I can also recall the TV engineer being called out to maintain/service the TVs, on a semi-regular basis, and being fascinated by the site of the back being removed and the innards being spread out in the sitting room.

Somewhere between colour and the next development, I moved out into the world on my own and so all references from here on refer to my own investments of time and money as opposed to those of my parents, as such the decision making process involved in all subsequent choices was much more personally considered.

The next major advance came with the video tape recorder, and all the advantages, and problems, that came with it. The important point to make here is that at this stage I was now in the possession of a TV with tuner in it and a VCR also with a tuner in it. Suddenly I had 2 TV tuners for the first time and it allowed me to do some remarkable things, by plugging the aerial lead into first the VCR and then from that to the TV it allowed me to either watch one channel while recording another or (using the VCR timers) record something while out or asleep without having switch on the TV. Brilliant! Just as long as you correctly set the timers (no mean feat on some early versions), remembered to put a tape in with sufficient blank capacity, and no one else interfered between the setting and the recording. There was a time briefly, towards the end of my love affair with VCRs, when Programme Delivery Control was added by some broadcasters who allegedly would send a trigger at the beginning and end of their programmes to set off a recording, avoiding delayed starts and overrunning ends. My personal experience of this technology was poor at best, with the technology promising far more than it ever delivered.

Fast forward to today and I have an HD ready LCD TV with 2 analogue tuners, a DVD recorder with one analogue tuner, a twin digital tuner PVR (I must agree with some others on here that calling it a DVR is preferable), and an upgraded aerial. I never use the tuners built into the TV or DVDR, all my TV viewing, be it either live, time-slipped, or recorded, is done via the digital tuners in the DVR.

The point I would like to make is that in order to have a direct digital equivalent of my old analogue TV/VCR setup, the easiest set up would be to have a TV with a built in digital tuner and a VCR also with a digital tuner in. As these particular beasts are rarer than hen’s teeth, we could choose to, either connect an external digital tuner (STB) directly to the VCR, or substitute the VCR with a DVD recorder with a built in digital tuner, slightly less rare.

With this configuration I would effectively have the same as my TV/VCR setup, but why would I want to stop at this, with digital technology I now have all kinds of additional possibilities opening up, pausing and rewinding live TV, fast forwarding through adverts, setting up recordings via a simple on screen menu, etc. These benefits only accrue though, when the 2 tuners, recording media, and software are integrated in one unit, so they can work together effectively to accomplish these functions simply. The TV itself has become, for me, simply a viewing panel, with no need for any tuner at all. Any attempt to split these factors across more than one product; one tuner in the TV, another in the recorder, EPG in the recorder, different software on both, can only lead to confusion of the hardware and, ultimately, the poor user.

In my opinion the outcry about the lack of integrated digital TVs is wasted breath based on an out of date view of current and near future technology. It shouldn’t matter what type of tuner your TV of choice has (if any), just make sure it has plenty of choice when it comes to accepting inputs, and then concentrate on what you want to feed into it. If you are going down the Freeview route then I would only ever recommend a full on twin tuner DVR, the particular brand is up to you and your budget. All have got their horror stories, but for every one of those I am sure there are hundreds of users with no problems at all. I am also of the opinion that most of those difficulties can largely be attributed, ultimately to signal quality fluctuations, when the signal is marginal; setting aside some of your upgrade budget to get the finest signal you can get will be the best way to spend your money.

I hope this long winded exposition has been of use to those who have persevered and got this far and thanks for reading.

Snail

arezzaz · 17-11-2006, 19:50

And your point is?

beardedwonder · 17-11-2006, 20:26

You need 2 digiboxes to record freeview and watch a seperate channel in the same way that you needed 2 analogue tuners to record analogue TV and watch a seperate channel. One in the TV and one in the VCR.

mossy2103 · 17-11-2006, 21:22

Or replace your VCR with a dual-tuner PVR or dvd recorder. Something like the Topfield 5800 will allow you to record from two channels at a time (as well as watching a third if that third channel is on the same mux as one of the existing recordings).

x-p-d · 17-11-2006, 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by beardedwonder

You need 2 digiboxes to record freeview and watch a seperate channel in the same way that you needed 2 analogue tuners to record analogue TV and watch a seperate channel. One in the TV and one in the VCR.

Exactly. I dont know why people are so confused or "daunted" by this...

merlodlliw · 17-11-2006, 22:22

[quote=Snail]I

I hope this long winded exposition has been of use to those who have persevered and got this far and thanks for reading.

I wonder,are you from the planet Zog,or have you been taking Zog, but I left the important part in.(last 3 lines)
Murdoch is looking for people like you,to employ on ITV when he gets it,Oh my god its snail hour,lets watch BBC.

Sorry Snail but I am fed up with the 20%,Murdoch now owns in ITV, in fact gutted, but perhaps he might do a Maxwell, in this case fall off a sat.

Bob Wrexham

beardedwonder · 18-11-2006, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossy2103

Or replace your VCR with a dual-tuner PVR or dvd recorder. Something like the Topfield 5800 will allow you to record from two channels at a time (as well as watching a third if that third channel is on the same mux as one of the existing recordings).

Exactly, so with two tuners you can record many channels whilst watching 1! Could you do that with analogue?

That Bloke · 18-11-2006, 06:05

Has anyone actually read the original post rather than just looking at the title and assuming?

The point he is making is that the new solutions involving PVRs (or DVRs depending which you prefer

) are better than what was on offer with the old analogue systems.

I for one definately agree!

Cyclone · 18-11-2006, 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossy2103

Or replace your VCR with a dual-tuner PVR or dvd recorder. Something like the Topfield 5800 will allow you to record from two channels at a time (as well as watching a third if that third channel is on the same mux as one of the existing recordings).

Also, if the two recording channels are on the same mux (like BBC1 and BBC2) then you can watch any other channel

bronson · 18-11-2006, 10:17

Read it and have no idea what his point is.

JamesE · 18-11-2006, 10:40

Well, I enjoyed it but I think snail and I are of a similar generation. Never mind, friend, these little boys might catch up with us, one day!
It was also beautifully written, in English with correct syntax and spelling, a condition rarely, if ever, achieved in most posts.

trilobite · 18-11-2006, 19:41

I agree that integrated digital televisions are not worth the money. In my experience, they never seem to work properly, and become outdated very quickly.

Manufacturers would be better concentrating on producing high quality monitor displays, without the tuner; but include all the latest connectivity (sockets, etc.). Then, Joe Public could simply connect his desired box, whether it's made for satellite, terrestrial, or cable. (And remote controls should be designed to operate rival manufacturers equipment!)

It is so much cheaper to change set-top boxes now and again, than to fling out a nearly new television!

billinge · 18-11-2006, 21:34

You've always had to have two tuners to watch one channel while recording the other, even with analogue tv, the difference being that with analogue, the video had a tuner and the tv had a tuner, so no problem.

It'll all get sorted when recorders and tv's all have digital tuners built in.

kev · 19-11-2006, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snail

In order to have a direct digital equivalent of my old analogue TV/VCR setup, the easiest set up would be to have a TV with a built in digital tuner and a VCR also with a digital tuner in.

That should be an auto reply message to anyone trying to record Freeview!

My take of it is....

An STB converts a single TV only and you have to replace your VCR with something else...

1. An IDVCR - Rare as hens teeth, and once you've seen digital who wants to go back to VHS?

2. A ID-DVD Recorder - fiddly IMHO, and you can't even record from two different models (although selected combos may work!), basically recording on DVD's is an arse. (What is DVD-RAM recording like across manufacturers?). Also surprisingly rare and expensive.

3. A PVR - the easiest of the lot to use - highlight a programme and press record to record, or highlight a recording and press play to watch. Main limitation is you can only watch in the room you have recorded in

4. A networked PVR - the only one's I know of are Media Centre PC's - and £700 for a noisy box (more for quieter ones) is taking the piss...

5. Solid state PVR - records to hard disc and allows you to copy to SD cards - two main problems - SD cards are still too small to be massively practicable, and the only device I believe can do this is a Pani DVD/HDD recorder (none ID)

Daveoc64 · 19-11-2006, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by kev

That should be an auto reply message to anyone trying to record Freeview!

My take of it is....

An STB converts a single TV only and you have to replace your VCR with something else...

1. An IDVCR - Rare as hens teeth, and once you've seen digital who wants to go back to VHS?

2. A ID-DVD Recorder - fiddly IMHO, and you can't even record from two different models (although selected combos may work!), basically recording on DVD's is an arse. (What is DVD-RAM recording like across manufacturers?). Also surprisingly rare and expensive.

3. A PVR - the easiest of the lot to use - highlight a programme and press record to record, or highlight a recording and press play to watch. Main limitation is you can only watch in the room you have recorded in

4. A networked PVR - the only one's I know of are Media Centre PC's - and £700 for a noisy box (more for quieter ones) is taking the piss...

5. Solid state PVR - records to hard disc and allows you to copy to SD cards - two main problems - SD cards are still too small to be massively practicable, and the only device I believe can do this is a Pani DVD/HDD recorder (none ID)

You missed out the other option - get another DTT box for your VCR.

kev · 19-11-2006, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daveoc64

You missed out the other option - get another DTT box for your VCR.

Only really a sensible option if your VCR supports some form of satellite control and the STB you choose does too.

If you have to do it manually (like I did until I got my PVR) you'll end up getting pissed off and chucking it out the window. I had more missed recordings doing that than I lost thanks to the Twin's original buggy firmware.

JamesE · 19-11-2006, 23:57

Vcr supports satellite control??? um-ti-dum-ti-dum-ti-dum-ti...............

hxbro · 20-11-2006, 09:25

I think he's referring to the vcr's that can change the channel of another device like a sky box via infra-red, mine can.

kev · 20-11-2006, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by hxbro

I think he's referring to the vcr's that can change the channel of another device like a sky box via infra-red, mine can.

That and those that can be controlled by a satellite receiver / Sony Freeview receiver (i.e. select this AV channel and record until I tell you to stop) - e.g. my parents Pani VCR and Sky Digital's Autoview do this brilliantly.

antxxxx · 20-11-2006, 17:35

One of the great strengths of vcr over hard disk based pvrs is the ability to watch the recorded program on another machine.

I was trying to convince my dad to buy a pvr, but he still uses the vcr to record programmes which he can then watch in any of the tvs in his house and so was not interested.

gomezz · 20-11-2006, 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by antxxxx

One of the great strengths of vcr over hard disk based pvrs is the ability to watch the recorded program on another machine.

I do not think that is exactly what he would like to do. What he would really like to do is to watch the recorded program in a different location. There a several modern solutions to this. For example, hook up a Slingbox.

Daveoc64 · 20-11-2006, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by antxxxx

One of the great strengths of vcr over hard disk based pvrs is the ability to watch the recorded program on another machine.

I was trying to convince my dad to buy a pvr, but he still uses the vcr to record programmes which he can then watch in any of the tvs in his house and so was not interested.

My PC is a PVR and it let's me stream programmes to another device or burn them to DVD.

kev · 20-11-2006, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by antxxxx

One of the great strengths of vcr over hard disk based pvrs is the ability to watch the recorded program on another machine.

I was trying to convince my dad to buy a pvr, but he still uses the vcr to record programmes which he can then watch in any of the tvs in his house and so was not interested.

The bastard love child of a PVR with built in slingbox and TV with built in slingbox player would be ideal... Hence my suggestion of the networked PVR. I do miss being able to watch a recording in the kitchen though. Sillk wouldn't go back to VHS though!

jetbootjack · 20-11-2006, 23:52

Even though you rule out a Media Centre PC (with extenders) - they really are the solution to the problems raised here

One centralized recording device (which does NOT have to be under the sitting room TV, although one of mine is) which can share it's data around the entire home - and record from multiple tuners (my system is based on 2 PC's and 4 Freeview tuners).

Watching recordings on any TV in the house via extenders and set recordings from any TV - create one off, series linked or key word recordings (and any number of them) - and also do that from any PC or mobile phone.

Stream stuff - music, downloaded video (inc Divx), photos and play DVD's and (if you have a US XBOX Live account, but coming soon to UK) download rent TV shows and films in SD or HD...

Aside from US Tivo's which can be networked - MCE is really the only option...

sTeVE

kev · 21-11-2006, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetbootjack

Aside from US Tivo's which can be networked - MCE is really the only option...

Provided you don't want to record at around 03:00 on the second Wednesday in the month anyway

I like the whole idea of MCE, but i'd have to have the main box in my bedroom

I'd love to see an extender the size of a SCART plug (like some Freeview boxes).

How open is the architecture - could Philips (for example) build an extender into there TV's without being mugged by Microsoft?

17-11-2006, 17:35	#1
Snail Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Services: Freeview - Crystal Palace Guildford relay Posts: 644	Why do I need 2 digiboxes to record Freeview? I thought I would share my experience of the developing TV environment in an attempt to help some who are finding the whole Digital thing daunting. I’ll try to avoid too much jargon and this is not meant, by any means, to be a definitive explanation, so apologies up front for any incorrect technical terminology. When I started watching TV there were two channels and they were in black and white. I think switching channels required the turning of a tuning dial, but I can’t be certain as this was not a task entrusted to a child. I also seem to recall the aerial being an external one shaped like a large X on the roof. The next development I recall was the addition of a third channel at about the same time as a switch was made from 405 lines to 625. The TV changed with the tuning method switching to pressing in a button pre-tuned to the frequency required, from a choice of about 6 or 8. Also the roof mounted aerial was changed to a horizontal multi-element one similar to those used today. During this period I believe my parents rented the TV as there was talk of continuous improvements and changes in technology which would necessitate frequent changes to the TV, added to which the cost of a TV as a percentage of take home pay then was considerable and far fewer families appeared to be able to afford an outright purchase compared to today. Then came colour, by which time I was allowed near the TV to adjust it when required, a primitive form of remote control . I can also recall the TV engineer being called out to maintain/service the TVs, on a semi-regular basis, and being fascinated by the site of the back being removed and the innards being spread out in the sitting room. Somewhere between colour and the next development, I moved out into the world on my own and so all references from here on refer to my own investments of time and money as opposed to those of my parents, as such the decision making process involved in all subsequent choices was much more personally considered. The next major advance came with the video tape recorder, and all the advantages, and problems, that came with it. The important point to make here is that at this stage I was now in the possession of a TV with tuner in it and a VCR also with a tuner in it. Suddenly I had 2 TV tuners for the first time and it allowed me to do some remarkable things, by plugging the aerial lead into first the VCR and then from that to the TV it allowed me to either watch one channel while recording another or (using the VCR timers) record something while out or asleep without having switch on the TV. Brilliant! Just as long as you correctly set the timers (no mean feat on some early versions), remembered to put a tape in with sufficient blank capacity, and no one else interfered between the setting and the recording. There was a time briefly, towards the end of my love affair with VCRs, when Programme Delivery Control was added by some broadcasters who allegedly would send a trigger at the beginning and end of their programmes to set off a recording, avoiding delayed starts and overrunning ends. My personal experience of this technology was poor at best, with the technology promising far more than it ever delivered. Fast forward to today and I have an HD ready LCD TV with 2 analogue tuners, a DVD recorder with one analogue tuner, a twin digital tuner PVR (I must agree with some others on here that calling it a DVR is preferable), and an upgraded aerial. I never use the tuners built into the TV or DVDR, all my TV viewing, be it either live, time-slipped, or recorded, is done via the digital tuners in the DVR. The point I would like to make is that in order to have a direct digital equivalent of my old analogue TV/VCR setup, the easiest set up would be to have a TV with a built in digital tuner and a VCR also with a digital tuner in. As these particular beasts are rarer than hen’s teeth, we could choose to, either connect an external digital tuner (STB) directly to the VCR, or substitute the VCR with a DVD recorder with a built in digital tuner, slightly less rare. With this configuration I would effectively have the same as my TV/VCR setup, but why would I want to stop at this, with digital technology I now have all kinds of additional possibilities opening up, pausing and rewinding live TV, fast forwarding through adverts, setting up recordings via a simple on screen menu, etc. These benefits only accrue though, when the 2 tuners, recording media, and software are integrated in one unit, so they can work together effectively to accomplish these functions simply. The TV itself has become, for me, simply a viewing panel, with no need for any tuner at all. Any attempt to split these factors across more than one product; one tuner in the TV, another in the recorder, EPG in the recorder, different software on both, can only lead to confusion of the hardware and, ultimately, the poor user. In my opinion the outcry about the lack of integrated digital TVs is wasted breath based on an out of date view of current and near future technology. It shouldn’t matter what type of tuner your TV of choice has (if any), just make sure it has plenty of choice when it comes to accepting inputs, and then concentrate on what you want to feed into it. If you are going down the Freeview route then I would only ever recommend a full on twin tuner DVR, the particular brand is up to you and your budget. All have got their horror stories, but for every one of those I am sure there are hundreds of users with no problems at all. I am also of the opinion that most of those difficulties can largely be attributed, ultimately to signal quality fluctuations, when the signal is marginal; setting aside some of your upgrade budget to get the finest signal you can get will be the best way to spend your money. I hope this long winded exposition has been of use to those who have persevered and got this far and thanks for reading. Snail

18-11-2006, 06:05	#8
That Bloke Forum Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Manchester Services: a TV, a couple of phones and t'internet Posts: 4,302	Has anyone actually read the original post rather than just looking at the title and assuming? The point he is making is that the new solutions involving PVRs (or DVRs depending which you prefer ) are better than what was on offer with the old analogue systems. I for one definately agree! Last edited by That Bloke : 18-11-2006 at 06:14.

20-11-2006, 23:52	#24
jetbootjack Forum Member Join Date: May 2005 Services: SONY VGX XL-100, 3 Apple TV, 3 XBOX 360, Sony BDP350, SKY HD, Wii Posts: 89	Even though you rule out a Media Centre PC (with extenders) - they really are the solution to the problems raised here One centralized recording device (which does NOT have to be under the sitting room TV, although one of mine is) which can share it's data around the entire home - and record from multiple tuners (my system is based on 2 PC's and 4 Freeview tuners). Watching recordings on any TV in the house via extenders and set recordings from any TV - create one off, series linked or key word recordings (and any number of them) - and also do that from any PC or mobile phone. Stream stuff - music, downloaded video (inc Divx), photos and play DVD's and (if you have a US XBOX Live account, but coming soon to UK) download rent TV shows and films in SD or HD... Aside from US Tivo's which can be networked - MCE is really the only option... sTeVE Last edited by jetbootjack : 20-11-2006 at 23:57.

17-11-2006, 19:50	#2
arezzaz Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 8	And your point is?

17-11-2006, 20:26	#3
beardedwonder Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,653	You need 2 digiboxes to record freeview and watch a seperate channel in the same way that you needed 2 analogue tuners to record analogue TV and watch a seperate channel. One in the TV and one in the VCR.

17-11-2006, 21:22	#4
mossy2103 Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 33,030	Or replace your VCR with a dual-tuner PVR or dvd recorder. Something like the Topfield 5800 will allow you to record from two channels at a time (as well as watching a third if that third channel is on the same mux as one of the existing recordings).

17-11-2006, 22:22	#6
merlodlliw Banned User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bwlchgwyn/Wrexham County1375ft Services: FTAcomag/80cmmotorised/aol Posts: 2,394	[quote=Snail]I I hope this long winded exposition has been of use to those who have persevered and got this far and thanks for reading. I wonder,are you from the planet Zog,or have you been taking Zog, but I left the important part in.(last 3 lines) Murdoch is looking for people like you,to employ on ITV when he gets it,Oh my god its snail hour,lets watch BBC. Sorry Snail but I am fed up with the 20%,Murdoch now owns in ITV, in fact gutted, but perhaps he might do a Maxwell, in this case fall off a sat. Bob Wrexham

18-11-2006, 10:17	#10
bronson Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,240	Read it and have no idea what his point is.

18-11-2006, 10:40	#11
JamesE Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hibaldstow, N. Lincolnshire Services: BTbroadband,DTT,fta & ftv satellite,Digitalb. Posts: 5,311	Well, I enjoyed it but I think snail and I are of a similar generation. Never mind, friend, these little boys might catch up with us, one day! It was also beautifully written, in English with correct syntax and spelling, a condition rarely, if ever, achieved in most posts.

18-11-2006, 19:41	#12
trilobite Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Angus, Scotland Services: Humax pvr8000, Thomson pvr. Posts: 392	I agree that integrated digital televisions are not worth the money. In my experience, they never seem to work properly, and become outdated very quickly. Manufacturers would be better concentrating on producing high quality monitor displays, without the tuner; but include all the latest connectivity (sockets, etc.). Then, Joe Public could simply connect his desired box, whether it's made for satellite, terrestrial, or cable. (And remote controls should be designed to operate rival manufacturers equipment!) It is so much cheaper to change set-top boxes now and again, than to fling out a nearly new television!

18-11-2006, 21:34	#13
billinge Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cheshire Services: Tiscali TV&BB&Phone, Freesat, DTT, O2 (Genie PAYG) Posts: 429	You've always had to have two tuners to watch one channel while recording the other, even with analogue tv, the difference being that with analogue, the video had a tuner and the tv had a tuner, so no problem. It'll all get sorted when recorders and tv's all have digital tuners built in.

19-11-2006, 23:57	#17
JamesE Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hibaldstow, N. Lincolnshire Services: BTbroadband,DTT,fta & ftv satellite,Digitalb. Posts: 5,311	Vcr supports satellite control??? um-ti-dum-ti-dum-ti-dum-ti...............

20-11-2006, 09:25	#18
hxbro Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 2,041	I think he's referring to the vcr's that can change the channel of another device like a sky box via infra-red, mine can.

20-11-2006, 17:35	#20
antxxxx Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 8	One of the great strengths of vcr over hard disk based pvrs is the ability to watch the recorded program on another machine. I was trying to convince my dad to buy a pvr, but he still uses the vcr to record programmes which he can then watch in any of the tvs in his house and so was not interested.