[kev]

In Posting a reply in Trax FM format change - the latest station to co-locate I realised I was going off topic, so I've moved it here....

Originally Posted by Bingethink

**** me, if Doncaster is a "major metropolitan area", I must be living in Manhattan-on-Trent!

Why the hell they shelled all these licences out to piss-poor stations in one horse towns like Worksop, Oakham and Nuneaton when the frequencies could have been re-assigned on a regional level to give a proper radio choice to cities like Sheffield, Leeds and Nottingham is a question that has never been adequately answered...

Indeed - BBC East Midlands Today on TV seems to give a similar percentage of it's output over to Melton-on-Mowbry as 103fm The Eye does - trying to cover local areas properly is inevitably going to include larger towns nearby - as lets face it that is where people work, go to a club, watch a "big league" football or rugby team, go shopping or visit friends and family.

It seems totally mad that there are around a dozen local stations in Lancashire where many of those frequencies could be given over to regional radio (sorry to nip over the Pennines, but I know my red rose geography and radio scene better) - Which is better for the people of Wigan, Stockport, Preston, Leyland and Chorley, Blackpool, Knowsley, Blackburn and Bolton/Bury - having 7 different ILR stations that are basically clones of each other and Century, or reallocating those frequencies to, say, three county wide stations offering an increased choice* of, say, Juice Lancashire, Lancashire's Revolution and Asian Sound and then using the "spare" frequencies for relays in the east and north of the county?

*The increased choice not only going to those within the conurbations mentioned, but also in towns unserved by those stations - Kirkham, Garstang, Burnley, Pendal, Bootle, Rochdale etc.

So what do you think - should every one horse town get it's own ILR or should these have gone to regional stations, with community radio filling the void?

(I think it's sensible to point out that although I now live in the conurbation of the largest city in the East Midlands, I'm originally from the smaller town (now city) of Preston which would lose it's local ILR station if my suggestion happened - although in this case the proposed regional replacements would have similar coverage to the Preston/Blackpool ILR station Rock FM (Plus 2BR and The Bay 96.9).

I can see a reasoning from trying to leave the largest conurbations out of these regional ILR services - in my examples Liverpool would keep Juice, but this is likely to share a certain amount of programming Juice Lancashire anyway) - In much the same way you might get a West Midlands Galaxy replacing Touch FM, The Wolf and Telford FM, but remaining separate from Galaxy 102.2

[80sfan]

How about South and West Yorkshire?

Driving from Leeds to north Nottinghamshire last Sunday afternoon at 4pm, there was nothing but pop charts, pop charts and more pop charts on all stations - thank heavens for Radio 2 as it was the only one playing anything 'adult' on FM. All the 'sallie' stations were joining in with the charts so surely that defeats their purpose anyway of offering something different...

I think the way was with more regional than local radio

[kev]

Originally Posted by 80sfan

How about South and West Yorkshire?

Driving from Leeds to north Nottinghamshire last Sunday afternoon at 4pm, there was nothing but pop charts, pop charts and more pop charts on all stations - thank heavens for Radio 2 as it was the only one playing anything 'adult' on FM. All the 'sallie' stations were joining in with the charts so surely that defeats their purpose anyway of offering something different...

I think the way was with more regional than local radio

Sunday between 16:00 and 19:00 is where in car DAB is a godsend - enough stations you can find more than one without a bloody chart show!

[Powerplay]

Originally Posted by kev

In Posting a reply in Trax FM format change - the latest station to co-locate I realised I was going off topic, so I've moved it here....


Indeed - BBC East Midlands Today on TV seems to give a similar percentage of it's output over to Melton-on-Mowbry as 103fm The Eye does - trying to cover local areas properly is inevitably going to include larger towns nearby - as lets face it that is where people work, go to a club, watch a "big league" football or rugby team, go shopping or visit friends and family.

It seems totally mad that there are around a dozen local stations in Lancashire where many of those frequencies could be given over to regional radio (sorry to nip over the Pennines, but I know my red rose geography and radio scene better) - Which is better for the people of Wigan, Stockport, Preston, Leyland and Chorley, Blackpool, Knowsley, Blackburn and Bolton/Bury - having 7 different ILR stations that are basically clones of each other and Century, or reallocating those frequencies to, say, three county wide stations offering an increased choice* of, say, Juice Lancashire, Lancashire's Revolution and Asian Sound and then using the "spare" frequencies for relays in the east and north of the county?

*The increased choice not only going to those within the conurbations mentioned, but also in towns unserved by those stations - Kirkham, Garstang, Burnley, Pendal, Bootle, Rochdale etc.

So what do you think - should every one horse town get it's own ILR or should these have gone to regional stations, with community radio filling the void?

(I think it's sensible to point out that although I now live in the conurbation of the largest city in the East Midlands, I'm originally from the smaller town (now city) of Preston which would lose it's local ILR station if my suggestion happened - although in this case the proposed regional replacements would have similar coverage to the Preston/Blackpool ILR station Rock FM (Plus 2BR and The Bay 96.9).

I can see a reasoning from trying to leave the largest conurbations out of these regional ILR services - in my examples Liverpool would keep Juice, but this is likely to share a certain amount of programming Juice Lancashire anyway) - In much the same way you might get a West Midlands Galaxy replacing Touch FM, The Wolf and Telford FM, but remaining separate from Galaxy 102.2

Totally agree, it's a typical example of how The Radio Authority during the 90's & Ofcom have f**ked up commercial radio in this coutry by granting licences in tiny towns where stations are simply not justified, for the sake of pocketing a £40,000 licence fee!

[snukr]

Originally Posted by kev

In Posting a reply in Trax FM format change - the latest station to co-locate I realised I was going off topic, so I've moved it here....


Indeed - BBC East Midlands Today on TV seems to give a similar percentage of it's output over to Melton-on-Mowbry as 103fm The Eye does - trying to cover local areas properly is inevitably going to include larger towns nearby - as lets face it that is where people work, go to a club, watch a "big league" football or rugby team, go shopping or visit friends and family.

It seems totally mad that there are around a dozen local stations in Lancashire where many of those frequencies could be given over to regional radio (sorry to nip over the Pennines, but I know my red rose geography and radio scene better) - Which is better for the people of Wigan, Stockport, Preston, Leyland and Chorley, Blackpool, Knowsley, Blackburn and Bolton/Bury - having 7 different ILR stations that are basically clones of each other and Century, or reallocating those frequencies to, say, three county wide stations offering an increased choice* of, say, Juice Lancashire, Lancashire's Revolution and Asian Sound and then using the "spare" frequencies for relays in the east and north of the county?

*The increased choice not only going to those within the conurbations mentioned, but also in towns unserved by those stations - Kirkham, Garstang, Burnley, Pendal, Bootle, Rochdale etc.

So what do you think - should every one horse town get it's own ILR or should these have gone to regional stations, with community radio filling the void?

(I think it's sensible to point out that although I now live in the conurbation of the largest city in the East Midlands, I'm originally from the smaller town (now city) of Preston which would lose it's local ILR station if my suggestion happened - although in this case the proposed regional replacements would have similar coverage to the Preston/Blackpool ILR station Rock FM (Plus 2BR and The Bay 96.9).

I can see a reasoning from trying to leave the largest conurbations out of these regional ILR services - in my examples Liverpool would keep Juice, but this is likely to share a certain amount of programming Juice Lancashire anyway) - In much the same way you might get a West Midlands Galaxy replacing Touch FM, The Wolf and Telford FM, but remaining separate from Galaxy 102.2

Leicester is the largest city in the East Midlands and non of the places that you mentioned is a conurbation(Greater Manchester, West Midlands, etc are conurbations) with the possible exception of Blackburn/Burnley. Bolton, Bury and Stockport are all part of the Greater Manchester conurbation and Stockport has never beeen part of Lancashire.

[Powerplay]

Originally Posted by snukr

Leicester is the largest city in the East Midlands and non of the places that you mentioned is a conurbation(Greater Manchester, West Midlands, etc are conurbations) with the possible exception of Blackburn/Burnley. Bolton, Bury and Stockport are all part of the Greater Manchester conurbation and Stockport has never beeen part of Lancashire.

Isn't Nottingham bigger than Leicester?

[krob2]

Originally Posted by Powerplay

Isn't Nottingham bigger than Leicester?

Not the actual city - but Greater Nottingham including Gedling,Broxtowe,West Bridgford etc.. is...

[radamfi]

Originally Posted by snukr

Leicester is the largest city in the East Midlands

That may be strictly speaking the case if we are talking about administrative boundaries but that is due to the rather different boundary drawing between the Greater Nottingham area and Leicester. The Nottingham 'city' boundaries are drawn very tightly meaning that much of its urban area and wider conurbation lies outside the City of Nottingham local authority area.

Because of these anomalies, National Statistics have defined statistical urban areas which are more appropriate when comparing different areas:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...a_ew_part1.pdf

This shows the population (2001 census) of the urban areas of Nottingham, Derby and Leicester to be as follows (with the individual settlement population in brackets):

Nottingham Urban Area: 666,358 (249,584)
Derby Urban Area: 236,738 (229,407)
Leicester Urban Area: 441,213 (330,574)

[80sfan]

Originally Posted by krob2

Not the actual city - but Greater Nottingham including Gedling,Broxtowe,West Bridgford etc.. is...

Nottingham never actually ends when you leave the City of Nottingham council area... you're into Gedling, Broxtowe or Rushcliffe areas before you leave the suburbs and see some countryside

In any case, Nottingham is the main city in the East Midlands region, in spite of any population differences with Leicester

[Mr. X]

"My city's bigger than your city!" Stop it

[redcar1]

Originally Posted by kev

Sunday between 16:00 and 19:00 is where in car DAB is a godsend - enough stations you can find more than one without a bloody chart show!

I well remember this headache from when I used to travel back from my Gran's by train on a Sunday afternoon - endless charts on all the pop based stations. DAB wouldn't have helped though - the coverage is so poor!

I have to agree with the general thrust of this thread that small scale ILR is wasteful - the original idea of larger (heritage station) scale stations covering the smaller towns between the big cities was better. Obviously in more sparsely populated areas stations based in smaller towns, but still covering a wide area (a good example might be Radio Borders) would be necessary. What I don't see necessary are stations like Alpha FM (Darlington) which are similar to the heritage station (TFM) which already completely covers their service area. They would only have a reason to exist if they offered a significantly different type of service, which they don't. And because thy're so small they're not viable financially and end up resorting to automation or networking, so why bother!

[R300]

I think the power of some of these frequencies could be adjusted downwards to make room for more stations. 103.4 from Doncasters Hallam FM gets all over most parts of Lincolnshire, North Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, old Humberside area and beyond. Turn it down a bit and see what spectrum could be used elsewhere now with less interference.

Also Viking FM 96.9 signal - again goes out way too far, same as the Pulse on 102.5 - I can get a decent stereo reception 60 odd miles aways. Radio Leicester on 104.9 goes out way too far - I could go on but if some of these were adjusted then there could be room for new stations on 'the fringes' of the reception area.

[80sfan]

Originally Posted by R300

I think the power of some of these frequencies could be adjusted downwards to make room for more stations. 103.4 from Doncasters Hallam FM gets all over most parts of Lincolnshire, North Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, old Humberside area and beyond. Turn it down a bit and see what spectrum could be used elsewhere now with less interference.

Very true - from experience when I lived in the area Hallam's 103.4 reaches down as far as Mansfield, Newark, Lincoln and even Grantham!

Considering the main towns in South Yorkshire are covered by other Hallam FM sites, and Trax FM cover the Doncaster area perfectly well with 500 watts from the same site, surely the 103.4 power could be turned down a bit?!?

[80sfan]

Originally Posted by R300

Also Viking FM 96.9 signal - again goes out way too far, same as the Pulse on 102.5 - I can get a decent stereo reception 60 odd miles aways.

When I lived in a village between Retford and Newark I loved picking up Viking FM - not exactly local but they played some good stuff back in the day! The Top 10 at Ten was always more adventurous than Hallam's too

It wasn't impossible to pick up the Pulse in that area either, above all when you went out Worksop way. The signal was so strong you only needed a decent portable hi-fi with the aerial fully pulled out

[wtopnewstime]

Originally Posted by redcar1

What I don't see necessary are stations like Alpha FM (Darlington) which are similar to the heritage station (TFM) which already completely covers their service area.

The point is that these stations were established as an alternative to the heritage stations at a time when they were CHR-led. Nowadays the Big City network, for example, is encroaching back onto the ground it vacated when it suddenly realised kids were tuning to yoof-brands like Galaxy.

Another issue is that the smaller stations often want to sound bigger and forget what they should be there to offer. In the case of Alpha and the other TLRC stations the homogenous 'Music Fun Life' brand has done a lot of damage to local credibility.

As far as I'm concerned if you listen to a local station and there's very little about it that is genuinely local (or couldn't be achieved with networked programming) then it is failing to deliver. There is an appetite for local radio that plays a meaningful part in communities and, where this happens, RAJAR reflects it.

In the future one of the only things commercial radio will have to offer is the USP of localness. What a shame that the big players sold this down the river years ago.

[kev]

Originally Posted by 80sfan

Very true - from experience when I lived in the area Hallam's 103.4 reaches down as far as Mansfield, Newark, Lincoln and even Grantham!

Your forgetting Nottingham - I can listen to it all the way from my house to the local supermarket without it dropping out - any further north and Mansfield 103.2 starts cutting in though! Bloody strong in Lincoln too.

Mind you saying that The Eye (community radio station at 50W) reaches all the way up to the A46/A1 junction outside of Lincoln, and Junction 26 of the M1, but within that area is pretty dodgy.


Just to clarify what I meant about "large conurbations" - i'm thinking of the huge urban blobs - i.e. Birmingham (~Galaxy 102.2), Manchester (~Galaxy 102), Liverpool (~Juice 107.6), London (~Xfm) which already have a respectable choice of stations they can/could support on their own, giving the chance of neighbouring towns getting something relevant (i.e. Lancashire not missing out thanks to Greater Manchester and Merseyside)

Smaller conurbations that would remain within my proposed (sub)regional licences generally have no ILR service of their own and are not so much larger than the surrounding towns they would overpower them - i.e. Nottingham, Sheffield, Leicester, Preston, Luton, Oxford, Milton Keynes. (And stop calling West Bridgford "Nottingham" - we ain't, you can leave you car unlocked overnight and it won't be pinched (ooops!) - and here doth end the snob's public information broadcast).

I wonder if a replan could be done - i.e turn the wick down on Hallam 103.4 and a few other Emaps, change some frequencies, and as compensation give them an FM frequency for Magic in the North West. For Lincs FM they could get a new West and South Yorkshire frequency, including Sheffield, and a relay for Newark-on-Trent, for giving up there local stations.

[Bingethink]

Originally Posted by kev

I wonder if a replan could be done .

Not really.

1) The legislation doesn't allow Ofcom to unilaterally grant a group a new licence as compensation for trimming its sails elsewhere. They need to go the statutory process of advertising, inviting applications etc etc.

2) The future is digital. There is no appetitie at Ofcom for tinkering with the FM band. Whether it's DAB, DAB+, DRM or something else, the relative importance of the FM band will only diminish over time.

Of course a replan is technically possible. But it's really only pedantic old anoraks (and I include myself firmly in this camp) that find the fact that Coventry has two more radio stations than Leicester such an unendurable burden.

[tghe-retford]

Originally Posted by 80sfan

Very true - from experience when I lived in the area Hallam's 103.4 reaches down as far as Mansfield, Newark, Lincoln and even Grantham!

I have know for Hallam FM (from the Clifton transmitter on 103.4) to go as far as Huddersfield as we once found out when my Dad drove me and my sister there, so it can go quite far!

[80sfan]

Originally Posted by tghe-retford

I have know for Hallam FM (from the Clifton transmitter on 103.4) to go as far as Huddersfield as we once found out when my Dad drove me and my sister there, so it can go quite far!

We're beginning to build up a good idea of Hallam's (unofficial!) area here

How far north does 103.4 travel I wonder - as far as Wetherby or York? I know that in Wakefield you've the choice of 102.9 and 103.4 and in Leeds 103.4 can be heard.

Speaking of York, Minster FM was another station I could listen to in Notts with a small radio and a telescopic aerial

[Westward]

Originally Posted by wtopnewstime

In the future one of the only things commercial radio will have to offer is the USP of localness. What a shame that the big players sold this down the river years ago.

Have they really? Even GCap & EMAP heritage stations are broadcasting a local service in their area between 6am-7pm with local news and information throughout the day.

Ofcom have already ruled out a reorganisation of the FM band (in 2004 but the decision still stands). Apart from North/Mid Wales there won't be any new FM licences advertised until at least 1 April 2008 and I don't believe they will restart FM licensing on a grand scale then either (there may be one or two).

[smorris]

Originally Posted by Bingethink

Of course a replan is technically possible. But it's really only pedantic old anoraks (and I include myself firmly in this camp) that find the fact that Coventry has two more radio stations than Leicester such an unendurable burden.

There is a rather larger potential benefit than two more stations in Leicester.

If you take any location in the UK other than the wilds of Scotland, and look at an equivalent area in France (which has had such a reorganisation), you will find around double the number of stations in the location in France.

Also, DAB has hardly taken over from FM. I'd bet heavily that a new FM licence covering an equivalent area would currently still be regarded as far more valuable to a company than an entire DAB multiplex. And that FM won't be switched off for 20 years. DAB can barely support stand-alone stations at the moment.

All the same, I agree it is unrealistic to expect it to happen in the current climate. The situation is currently that OFCOM regulates primarily in the interest of the bigger industry players (since they have been told to maximise the profitability of the airwaves) and more competition on FM would obviously threaten the profits of these companies.

[smorris]

To back up my point:

Leicester Urban Area: Population 441,213 (2001)
List of channels here.

Montpellier Aire Urbaine: Population 459,916 (1999)
List of channels here.

For the Montpellier list, it only covers the channels that would be in bold on the Leicester list, except 'Radio Trafic' which is only available on motorways.

So, in terms of FM channels available in good reception, Leicester has 10. Montpellier has 31. What would Leicester do with 21 more FM licences?

It's often said that in France there's a trade-off of having huge 'radio deserts' around cities like Montpellier, where there are no licences available at all - so I decided to take a look and see if that was the reality.

Well - there are 22 stations available in Nîmes (popn. 144,600) - compare that with Loughborough (10 stns). In OFCOM's defence, Loughborough is sandwiched between Nottingham, Derby and Leicester, making things a little difficult, but Nimes equally has Avignon, Montpellier and Marseille to contend with.

As for Market Harbrough (9 stns), the town of Sète leaves them for dust (22 stns, popn. 40,220), despite the awkward terrain, courtesy of some synchronised transmitters.

Even the small town of Lodève (14 stns, popn. 6,900), just north of the city, does rather well, despite requiring its own transmitter for every station due to the terrain. Certainly a lot better than the similarly situated Oakham (7 stations).

Even for a nearby village called Ganges, with a population of just 3,590, the CSA had two licences on offer, although it seems only a community station and a Christian network were interested.

[Westward]

Surely the major groups such as CanWest, GMG, EMAP, GCap & UTV would be favourites to win any new licences that would be created by an FM replan, not because of bias, but because of their greater financial ability to sustain a service over the whole licence period. Between them they have won most of the new large/medium scale FM licences over the last few years.

Somebody once told me that there are large holes in the coverage of the French national stations. I think for most people in the UK it would be totally unacceptable to reduce the national coverage of Radios 1, 2, 3 or 4 (about 98.5%) just for the sake of creating a few more pop-and-prattle FM commercial stations. That's the risk you take with a frequency replan.

[smorris]

Originally Posted by Westward

Somebody once told me that there are large holes in the coverage of the French national stations.

They're not dramatically worse than the BBC, really. I think this view likely comes from the fact that British people in France tend to visit mountainous tourist areas like the Dordogne, where reception is generally pretty awful, and, yes, has 'large holes'.

But the BBC's networks have equally 'large holes' in the West Highlands and Cumbria for example.

[80sfan]

Originally Posted by smorris

To back up my point:

Leicester Urban Area: Population 441,213 (2001)
List of channels here.

Montpellier Aire Urbaine: Population 459,916 (1999)
List of channels here.

For the Montpellier list, it only covers the channels that would be in bold on the Leicester list, except 'Radio Trafic' which is only available on motorways.

So, in terms of FM channels available in good reception, Leicester has 10. Montpellier has 31. What would Leicester do with 21 more FM licences?

It's interesting to note too that Montpellier has just been given a couple more of the national networks that were missing in the city (RTL2 and Skyrock) following the CSA's recent frequency allocation in that region. Certain stations were moved (Chérie FM and Nostalgie), one had to move their frequency by .1 up the dial (RTL) and some new frequencies were found (for RTL2, Skyrock and RTS FM).

If France can organise this on a regular basis, and also considering the Netherlands had a large frequency re-shuffle in 2004, why is OFCOM so reluctant to do the same here?

Imagine at least an Original, Heart, Kiss, Virgin, Magic, Smooth and Real in all the major towns and cities of the UK...