Police shoot Citizen - Citizen shoot Police: Worse? - General Discussion

12-06-2007, 09:58

With recent events I was just wondering what others think is worse:

An officer shooting an innocent civilian

or

A criminal shooting a police officer.

I say "criminal" because if you've just shot an officer...

Maybe they're of equal "wrongness" ?

Deep Purple · 12-06-2007, 10:02

They are totally separate things, and should be judged on merit.

The Officer killed has been stabbed in cold blood, and murdered.

The woman shot by Police was pointing a gun at armed Officers. Their actions seem legitimate in the circumstances.

In general terms, a criminal shooting a Police Officer will always be a criminal act. A Police Officer shooting an "innocent civilian" will not always be a criminal act, because generally the circumstances lead the Officer to believe someones life is at risk, and they need to shoot the person to prevent the death of someone else.

12-06-2007, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep Purple

They are totally separate things, and should be judged on merit.

The Officer killed has been stabbed in cold blood, and murdered.

The woman shot by Police was pointing a gun at armed Officers. Their actions seem legitimate in the circumstances.

In general terms, a criminal shooting a Police Officer will always be a criminal act. A Police Officer shooting an "innocent civilian" will not always be a criminal act, because generally the circumstances lead the Officer to believe someones life is at risk, and they need to shoot the person to prevent the death of someone else.

Thank you, Home Secretary.

Why innocent civilian in quotes, is there any doubt that a person is innocent until convicted?

indianwells · 12-06-2007, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsimix

Thank you, Home Secretary.

Why innocent civilian in quotes, is there any doubt that a person is innocent until convicted?

If someone is pointing a replica gun at armed police officers(who don't know it's a replica) and refuse to drop it then they will be shot and probably killed. How hard is that to understand? I suppose you would prefer it if the police officer was shot?

crazydave · 12-06-2007, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsimix

With recent events I was just wondering what others think is worse:

An officer shooting an innocent civilian

or

A criminal shooting a police officer.

I say "criminal" because if you've just shot an officer...

Maybe they're of equal "wrongness" ?

Given this totaltarian govenrment i would say it's better to shoot a servant of the police state

Deep Purple · 12-06-2007, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsimix

Thank you, Home Secretary.

Why innocent civilian in quotes, is there any doubt that a person is innocent until convicted?

It's not really the correct term, and it will not be until after the incident that it will be shown whether or not the Officer was justified in shooting.

At the time, the Officer will make a judgement on what they know, and see. If the circumstances seem that someones life is in danger, they are entitled to shoot.

It may be found later that the person had only an imitation firearm, as yesterday, but that is not something the Officer knows.

I'm not sure what you mean by an innocent victim.

12-06-2007, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deep Purple

It's not really the correct term, and it will not be until after the incident that it will be shown whether or not the Officer was justified in shooting.

At the time, the Officer will make a judgement on what they know, and see. If the circumstances seem that someones life is in danger, they are entitled to shoot.

It may be found later that the person had only an imitation firearm, as yesterday, but that is not something the Officer knows.

I'm not sure what you mean by an innocent victim.

You really are the Home Secretary...

To say that someone can be assumed to be guilty... !!

Any officer should be willing to lay down his/her life for a citizen.

The life of a citizen is of greater importance than the life of an officer of the law.

The police considering their lives to be of greater importance than citizens is one indication of a police state.

Richie1001 · 12-06-2007, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsimix

You really are the Home Secretary...

To say that someone can be assumed to be guilty... !!

Any officer should be willing to lay down his/her life for a citizen.

The life of a citizen is of greater importance than the life of an officer of the law.

The police considering their lives to be of greater importance than citizens is one indication of a police state.

I think that if a civilian is waving a gun around - replica or not - and refusing to put it down and follow police instructions then I think they have to take action. I can't see how that is effecting my freedom - I don't tend to walk around with a gun.

indianwells · 12-06-2007, 10:43

If Deep Purple is the Home Secretary then you must be Swampy.

El Guapo · 12-06-2007, 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianwells

If Deep Purple is the Home Secretary then you must be Swampy.

lol! Nice one! Yes, you do not seem to have grasped the issue here pepsimix! Too much Pepsi maybe?

WokStation · 12-06-2007, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsimix

With recent events I was just wondering what others think is worse:

An officer shooting an innocent civilian

or

A criminal shooting a police officer.

I say "criminal" because if you've just shot an officer...

Maybe they're of equal "wrongness" ?

Given that you've said it's a definite that the civillian is innocent, I'll have to say that the officer shooting an innocent civillian is "worse".

Whether we (or they) like it or not, putting themselves in harm's way is part of the job of a police officer, but it's not expected of civillians (particularly when the danger is from someone who's supposed to protect them).

The only case that springs to mind fitting your criteria is Menendez.

Hathor · 12-06-2007, 11:27

If a citizen pointing a gun at a police person should not be shot, because they are "innocent", then a robber should not be arrested and detained at any time, because they are "innocent", and it would breach their rights

JDN21 · 12-06-2007, 11:46

What about the Menezes case - proven to be minding his own business, yet brutally gunned down by Police?

Thats just as bad as doing the same thing to a Policeman. Even if it was incompetence, that is no excuse.

Hathor · 12-06-2007, 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDN21

What about the Menezes case - proven to be minding his own business, yet brutally gunned down by Police?

Thats just as bad as doing the same thing to a Policeman. Even if it was incompetence, that is no excuse.

All humans make mistakes. Criminals do things deliberately. There is one difference.

Dan Sette · 12-06-2007, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsimix

Any officer should be willing to lay down his/her life for a citizen.

The life of a citizen is of greater importance than the life of an officer of the law.

The police considering their lives to be of greater importance than citizens is one indication of a police state.

The police have to uphold the law and protect its citizens. In yesterdays case there were numerous calls to the police about a woman carrying a gun.

The police had to respond to protect innocent life. That the person then refused to put down the gun when challenged cause dthe police to take action.

Frankly I'd put it in simpler terms than have been expressed.

What innocent person carries a gun around? If anyone is stupid enough, in this day and age, to walk around the street brandishing what looks like a gun, they deserve all they get. Including being shot.

D

Deep Purple · 12-06-2007, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsimix

You really are the Home Secretary...

To say that someone can be assumed to be guilty... !!

Any officer should be willing to lay down his/her life for a citizen.

The life of a citizen is of greater importance than the life of an officer of the law.

The police considering their lives to be of greater importance than citizens is one indication of a police state.

It depends what you mean by guilty. If you mean there is sufficient evidence to convict in court, that will never apply to any incident in the street.

Police Officers can only work within the law, and the law allows then to use reasonable force to prevent crime. If the circumstances are such that reasonable force is lethal force, then that is right.

If your innocent victim is someone is someone minding their own business, and the Police shoot him without any of the above reasons, that is murder, the same as any other such incident.

A Police Officer is not expected to lay down their lives when someone is pointing a gun at them, and they can do something about it.

If you think that makes the UK a Police State, you should maybe visit a genuine one to see what it's like.

UKMikey · 12-06-2007, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Sette

What innocent person carries a gun around? If anyone is stupid enough, in this day and age, to walk around the street brandishing what looks like a gun, they deserve all they get. Including being shot.

What about if you're schizophrenic and are carrying a replica weapon? I think you can expect to be shot, but do you deserve to be killed?

Hathor · 12-06-2007, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKMikey

What about if you're schizophrenic and are carrying a replica weapon? I think you can expect to be shot, but do you deserve to be killed?

Unfortunately there is no easy was to immediately disable someone with a gun without killing them.

In the case of the mad person, their health care professional should be investigated for competence. Why were they not secured?

Alex91 · 12-06-2007, 13:35

Both are as bad as each other, a copper's life is worth no more than a normal person's and vise versa.

UKMikey · 12-06-2007, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hathor

Unfortunately there is no easy was to immediately disable someone with a gun without killing them.

In the case of the mad person, their health care professional should be investigated for competence. Why were they not secured?

Completely agree here.

Toxic Bunni · 12-06-2007, 13:48

I'm sure if you shoot someone in a certain part of their shoulder, their hands will automatically release what they are holding....

WokStation · 12-06-2007, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic Bunni

I'm sure if you shoot someone in a certain part of their shoulder, their hands will automatically release what they are holding....

Or their muscles will spasm and the trigger will be pulled, particularly if the bullet slices through a connecting nerve or muscle (and so pulls on it on it's way through) of the finger.

Pelham123 · 12-06-2007, 14:11

I dont understand what is to be gained by judging what is "better" or "worse" anyway. We should instead strive for a world where neither happens.

stoatie · 12-06-2007, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Sette

The police have to uphold the law and protect its citizens. In yesterdays case there were numerous calls to the police about a woman carrying a gun.

The police had to respond to protect innocent life. That the person then refused to put down the gun when challenged cause dthe police to take action.

Frankly I'd put it in simpler terms than have been expressed.

What innocent person carries a gun around? If anyone is stupid enough, in this day and age, to walk around the street brandishing what looks like a gun, they deserve all they get. Including being shot.

D

That's a fair point, but it's worth remembering that in the de Menezes case there'd been actual confirmation from on high that he was a suicide bomber, rather than just calls from the public. See also Harry Stanley, reported to the police as an Irishman with a gun.

stoatie · 12-06-2007, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelham123

I dont understand what is to be gained by judging what is "better" or "worse" anyway. We should instead strive for a world where neither happens.

Well, yes, one would certainly hope so.

12-06-2007, 09:58	#1
pepsimix Posts: n/a	Police shoot Citizen - Citizen shoot Police: Worse? With recent events I was just wondering what others think is worse: An officer shooting an innocent civilian or A criminal shooting a police officer. I say "criminal" because if you've just shot an officer... Maybe they're of equal "wrongness" ?

12-06-2007, 10:02	#2
Deep Purple Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,213	They are totally separate things, and should be judged on merit. The Officer killed has been stabbed in cold blood, and murdered. The woman shot by Police was pointing a gun at armed Officers. Their actions seem legitimate in the circumstances. In general terms, a criminal shooting a Police Officer will always be a criminal act. A Police Officer shooting an "innocent civilian" will not always be a criminal act, because generally the circumstances lead the Officer to believe someones life is at risk, and they need to shoot the person to prevent the death of someone else.

12-06-2007, 10:43	#9
indianwells Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Jennifers lower appendage! Posts: 8,461 Blog Entries: 12	If Deep Purple is the Home Secretary then you must be Swampy.

12-06-2007, 11:27	#12
Hathor Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Babylon and Ting Services: I reject your reality, and substitute my own! Posts: 8,957	If a citizen pointing a gun at a police person should not be shot, because they are "innocent", then a robber should not be arrested and detained at any time, because they are "innocent", and it would breach their rights

12-06-2007, 11:46	#13
JDN21 Banned User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Liverpool Services: Sky TV, Virgin Broadband Posts: 333	What about the Menezes case - proven to be minding his own business, yet brutally gunned down by Police? Thats just as bad as doing the same thing to a Policeman. Even if it was incompetence, that is no excuse.

12-06-2007, 13:35	#19
Alex91 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Blackpool! , UK Posts: 7,933	Both are as bad as each other, a copper's life is worth no more than a normal person's and vise versa.

12-06-2007, 13:48	#21
Toxic Bunni Banned User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 0207 baby! Posts: 11,920	I'm sure if you shoot someone in a certain part of their shoulder, their hands will automatically release what they are holding....

12-06-2007, 14:11	#23
Pelham123 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 194	I dont understand what is to be gained by judging what is "better" or "worse" anyway. We should instead strive for a world where neither happens.