Babylon 5 --- And so it begins. Again. Spoiler thread for whedon247's journey - Cult

Trollheart · 12-04-2009, 11:01

OK, so may as well start one up!
Post your discussions, spoilers and thoughts and comments on episodes here. To be consistent, let's try to go episode by episode as whedon247 watches them, and title each ep if we can, like a sub-thread, if that can be done? At least then we'll have structure, while not bugging non-B5 fans by clogging up the board with hundreds of threads (see? We're nicer and more considerate than some DW fans!)

BTW, what do B5 fans call themselves? Babylonians perhaps?
Word of totally unnecessary warning: whedon247, enter at your own risk, as this is a spoiler thread and there will be no spoiler tags...

Open the jumpgate!

TimA-C · 12-04-2009, 12:25

am I missing something here?

hugsie · 12-04-2009, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimA-C

am I missing something here?

Yes:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s....php?t=1015827

Trollheart · 12-04-2009, 20:17

Just one quick spoilery point about the discussion re "Born to the Purple": I liked it because, as I already said in whedon's thread, it showed us a softer, more human (!) side of Londo, but also because of what happened to Adria later on, when the Shadows and Mister Morden killed her because Londo was rebelling. Without BTTP, that leverage would not have been there, and Londo might not have turned fully against his former allies/masters.
Also, I LOVED the jockeying for position and powerplays between his wives! Hi-larious!

Bester · 12-04-2009, 20:22

^^ Joe often said that he had a number of different ways of bringing about the main story elements. Built in trapdoors so to speak just in case alternate avenues closed up. Had it not been Adira I'm fairly sure that Morden would have used Vir somehow for leverage.

Every episode has something to redeem it, if only a little. Take the aforementioned 'Infection' for example. An absolutely awful episode but even that starts off the whole thing about bio-tech and Earth's relentless pursuit of it.

Zeg · 12-04-2009, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

BTW, what do B5 fans call themselves? Babylonians perhaps?
Word of totally unnecessary warning: whedon247, enter at your own risk, as this is a spoiler thread and there will be no spoiler tags...

Open the jumpgate!

Well when we were watching the original series on C4 we used to meet in the pub each week and called ourselves the East Midlands Pak'ma'ra Buffet Club.

Trollheart · 12-04-2009, 20:37

I bet you had trouble saying that after a few pints!

Zeg · 12-04-2009, 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I bet you had trouble saying that after a few pints!

Indeed we did

Had membership cards made and everything (we were very sad in those days

)

leithlad · 12-04-2009, 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bester

^^ Joe often said that he had a number of different ways of bringing about the main story elements. Built in trapdoors so to speak just in case alternate avenues closed up. Had it not been Adira I'm fairly sure that Morden would have used Vir somehow for leverage.

Every episode has something to redeem it, if only a little. Take the aforementioned 'Infection' for example. An absolutely awful episode but even that starts off the whole thing about bio-tech and Earth's relentless pursuit of it.

Even the universally derided "TKO" has the scenes with Ivanovas dying father which was prob the first time we seen susans vulnerable side.Oh and i quite liked Infection,if only for David Mccallum

Zeg · 12-04-2009, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by leithlad

Even the universally derided "TKO" has the scenes with Ivanovas dying father which was prob the first time we seen susans vulnerable side.Oh and i quite liked Infection,if only for David Mccallum

Good point, I'd forgotten that (Susan's father), you see even the poor episodes had good bits.

hugsie · 12-04-2009, 23:25

As I said on the other thread. I always find on rewatching a less liked episode, I often find that I am reminded of small things within it that I liked.

In Soul hunter, it was the deepening of the Minbari/Sinclair conspiracy and Ivannovah's throwaway humour.

TimA-C · 12-04-2009, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugsie

Yes:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s....php?t=1015827

Ah! Thanks! I thought maybe there was something new happening in the B5 universe.

Series 1 doesn't exactly suck arse - especially if you go back and watch it again after watching at least the first four series! - but it's not as focussed as the later series (especially 3 & 4!). I still remember the anticipation and the impatience in having to wait for the rest of the family to go up to bed before I could watch the video recording made earlier that evening from Channel 4 and then the sheer frustration of having to wait another week before the next episode - again, especially in series 3 & 4! Ah, the good ol' days before Sky+ and DVDs!

I hope you enjoy them as much as I did and still do. (thank the Great Maker for DVD boxsets!)

Bester · 13-04-2009, 01:48

^^ I remember C4 fcuking up the order of the episodes in season two so that we got In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum before Knives. Given the sheer brilliance and anticipation towards the former, that was some quality screwing up on C4's part!

leithlad · 13-04-2009, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by hugsie

As I said on the other thread. I always find on rewatching a less liked episode, I often find that I am reminded of small things within it that I liked.

In Soul hunter, it was the deepening of the Minbari/Sinclair conspiracy and Ivannovah's throwaway humour.

I always liked Soul Hunter and was more dissapointed in The River of Souls when they brought them back,some horrendous overacting from Martin Sheen although Lochley in lingerie will never get old

marjangles · 13-04-2009, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by leithlad

I always liked Soul Hunter and was more dissapointed in The River of Souls when they brought them back,some horrendous overacting from Martin Sheen although Lochley in lingerie will never get old

I always remember thinking that the Soul Hunters would be really important to the story line but, apart from River of Souls (which I agree was not great), they didn't really feature at all.

Trollheart · 14-04-2009, 12:51

While we're here, why not do a top ten of our favourite episodes, and why?
I'll be back when I've compiled my list (though you can bet "War without end", "Interludes" and "Zha'dum" will be among them!)

Bester · 14-04-2009, 14:29

^^ Perhaps we should discount some of the episodes as a given?

I'm thinking that most people's lists would include the likes of;

Babylon Squared
The Coming of Shadows
Severed Dreams
War Without End
Z'ha'dum
Into the Fire
Endgame
Sleeping in Light

I think, all of those would feature in my top 10.

If we concentrated on episodes other than those mentioned above then I'd go with;

Season 1

Mind War - Great introduction for both Bester and the Psi Cops. The Ironheart story itself wasn't that great, or at least the character wasn't. Thankfully Walter Koenig more than compensated with a stunning portrayal of Alfred Bester. Not surprisingly, one of my favourite characters from the show!

Signs & Portents - It was a toss-up between this one and And the Sky Full of Stars. This one wins out because how could I NOT include the very first appearance of the Shadows?! The introduction of the extremely charismatic Mr Morden, and then the startling reveal of the Shadow vessel towards the end of the episode. The different reactions of the ambassadors to the question posed by Mr Morden is fascinating. A great, great episode IMO.

Chrysalis - Wow! Just, wow! Who could have expected this?! I'm not inclined to compare B5 with Star Trek often, but it has to be said, Trek would NEVER have done something like this. Garibaldi's shocking gunning down was bad enough, but the sight of Earth Force One exploding was the icing on the cake. Plus, didn't we get to see Julie Nickson in night-time atire in this one? Much appreciated, hubba hubba!

Season 2

The Long Dark - Summed up very easily by just saying "Dwight Schultz rocks!". I can't remember a better performance than the one he gives here. Absolutely phenomenal. The other thread makes mention of the quality of acting, but just look at the guest stars that appeared on the show. Some absolutely brilliant performances, and IMO, this is arguably the best! Not to mention, a pretty intruiging story in its own right, and a furtherment of the Shadow storyline.

In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum - Arguably my favourite episode from the entire series. The thing I enjoy most about this one is that any one of us would have taken exactly the same actions had we been in his shoes. His wife was gone and here's the one guy who should know what happened to her. I'd lock him up and throw away the key as well! Plus, with Morden popping up from time to time, to have him pointedly confronted and interrogated here was a welcome reveal of sorts. The bit where Sheridan manipulates Talia to have her passively scan him, was brilliant, as was her reaction!

Comes the Inquisitor - If the above isn't my favourite episode, then this one is. Fantastic story, tremendous performances from Mira and Bruce, and to top it all, a chillingly brilliant guest bit from Wayne Alexander as Sebastian. The Jack the Ripper link was a bit OTT, but the rest of the episode more than made up for it, and that's not even mentioning the G'kar subplot which in itself was superb. I can't find a major fault with this episode at all. Flawless in its execution, almost literally!

Season 3

Interludes & Examinations - The death of Kosh, how could that NOT make the list?! The first, long-expected/desired open confrontation between the Vorlons and the Shadows, and finally, finally, the Shadows get a kicking! Tres coolness......

Shadow Dancing - Two fantastic stories to this one. The first, the opening encounter between the alliance and the Shadows, and the FX were awesome. There's one panning shot in particular mid-firefight that's just absolutely brilliant and easily stands up to anything that Trek was producing at the time on a much larger budget. The other side is the culmination of Franklin's walkabout, which again, was the perfect complement for the main story. Awesome stuff.

Season 4

My season 4 picks would be the ones already discounted up top.

Season 5

Day of the Dead - The first half of the fifth season is often much maligned, and rightly so to a certain degree, but it then becomes far too easy to overlook this gem hidden amongst the lesser episodes. Written by Neil Gaiman and fully reflecting his brilliance, this is a fantastic episode. Characters once departed, now back for a little while. It was nice to see Dodger back, and Morden is always good value, and I loved the bit where G'kar insisted on sleeping in C&C. One of the better standalones IMO.

Objects at Rest - Narrowly beating out The Fall of Centauri Prime for my final pick. I've always been a fan of the Lord of the Rings novels, not least in part because of the way in which the resolution to the main story is resolved, but also, the fates of the characters. Tolkien affords the time to give his characters an ample, and deserved sendoff, and Straczynski affords his characters exactly the same luxury. As much as I'm ambivalent to the first half of the season, the later episodes were absolutely brilliant, and this is one of the best.

andy24_1976 · 14-04-2009, 14:40

I dunno how I'd pick favourites as I like the whole series

it felt very ground-breaking at the times

I couldn't guess what was gonna happen and who died, it would be nice to see it without knowing anything about it

RebelScum · 14-04-2009, 14:46

Severed Dreams
The Long Twilight Struggle
Shadow Dancing
Between the Darkness & the Light
Into the Fire
Sleeping in Light
Falling Toward Apotheosis
Endgame
Za'Ha'Dum
Passing Through Gethasme
The Summoning
Interludes & Examinations
Comes The Inquisitor

...I could go on...

andy24_1976 · 14-04-2009, 17:30

infection - I liked it and it showed that some people we're interested in weapons and people bonding with weapons plus IPX and that some factions we're after ancient tech

Brigon · 14-04-2009, 17:54

I watched Intersections in Real Time - Sheridan's interrogation a few nights ago. That episode was awesome.

Trollheart · 14-04-2009, 18:49

Yeah, what was I thinking? How could you choose?
Oh well, better try....

Season 1
Babylon squared --- makes the top cut for me purely because of how fantasically cleverly this episode was written, to hook up with a concluding storyline that left you THREE YEARS to wait for! Weird when I first watched it, totally 24-carat gold when viewed in hindsight. Unsurpassable.

And the sky full of stars --- Has to be up there, if not only for the fact that the REAL mystery starts to unfold in this ep ("You have a hole ... in your mind!"). One of the better performances by Michael O'Hare imo.

Believers --- Everyone knows why I love this episode. Lexx was once described as "Star Trek on acid". This could possibly be Star Trek on coke! Or maybe not. Total, TOTAL mindblowing ending!

A voice in the wilderness, part one and two --- Not only because it was the first two-parter, but also because it laid such important cornerstones to what would become Babylon 5's key to survival in later years. And we get our first mention of the First Ones (I think: it's been years since I sat down and watched it)

Signs and portents --- For the same reasons given by Bester. Top class!

Chrysalis --- You just couldn't leave it out, could you? At the end of season 1, the image of Earth Force One, turning over and over and then exploding was etched on my mind's eye...

I'll tackle season 2 in my next post...

leithlad · 14-04-2009, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brigon

I watched Intersections in Real Time - Sheridan's interrogation a few nights ago. That episode was awesome.

Yip totally agree though for me the episode before it The Face of the Enemy when Garibaldi sets up Sheridan is jawdroppingly good.

Bester · 14-04-2009, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy24_1976

infection - I liked it and it showed that some people we're interested in weapons and people bonding with weapons plus IPX and that some factions we're after ancient tech

Yeah, the IPX/Bio-tech link was the only redeeming factor of the episode for me.

Trollheart · 15-04-2009, 12:49

"Face of the enemy" and "Intersections in real time" are again two episodes that show how far beyond the "Federation is honourable and always wins" idea of Star Trek Joe pushed Babylon 5, to a point where, to some degree (and a long time before 24 arrived on the scene) there were times when you thought: hell, Sheridan isn't going to come out of this one alive, or at least sane!
That sort of blurring of the accepted norms (ie the good guy always wins/survives) is one of the founding cornerstones of Babylon 5, one of the things that marked it out as very special indeed, a new force to be reckoned with.

12-04-2009, 11:01	#1
Trollheart Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,361	Babylon 5 --- And so it begins. Again. Spoiler thread for whedon247's journey OK, so may as well start one up! Post your discussions, spoilers and thoughts and comments on episodes here. To be consistent, let's try to go episode by episode as whedon247 watches them, and title each ep if we can, like a sub-thread, if that can be done? At least then we'll have structure, while not bugging non-B5 fans by clogging up the board with hundreds of threads (see? We're nicer and more considerate than some DW fans!) BTW, what do B5 fans call themselves? Babylonians perhaps? Word of totally unnecessary warning: whedon247, enter at your own risk, as this is a spoiler thread and there will be no spoiler tags... Open the jumpgate!

12-04-2009, 12:25	#2
TimA-C Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 318	am I missing something here?

12-04-2009, 20:17	#4
Trollheart Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,361	Just one quick spoilery point about the discussion re "Born to the Purple": I liked it because, as I already said in whedon's thread, it showed us a softer, more human (!) side of Londo, but also because of what happened to Adria later on, when the Shadows and Mister Morden killed her because Londo was rebelling. Without BTTP, that leverage would not have been there, and Londo might not have turned fully against his former allies/masters. Also, I LOVED the jockeying for position and powerplays between his wives! Hi-larious!

12-04-2009, 20:22	#5
Bester Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Staffordshire Moorlands Services: Zen Internet, Xbox 360 Posts: 3,210	^^ Joe often said that he had a number of different ways of bringing about the main story elements. Built in trapdoors so to speak just in case alternate avenues closed up. Had it not been Adira I'm fairly sure that Morden would have used Vir somehow for leverage. Every episode has something to redeem it, if only a little. Take the aforementioned 'Infection' for example. An absolutely awful episode but even that starts off the whole thing about bio-tech and Earth's relentless pursuit of it.

12-04-2009, 20:37	#7
Trollheart Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,361	I bet you had trouble saying that after a few pints!

12-04-2009, 23:25	#11
hugsie Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the middle Services: It's a secret! Posts: 12,913	As I said on the other thread. I always find on rewatching a less liked episode, I often find that I am reminded of small things within it that I liked. In Soul hunter, it was the deepening of the Minbari/Sinclair conspiracy and Ivannovah's throwaway humour.

13-04-2009, 01:48	#13
Bester Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Staffordshire Moorlands Services: Zen Internet, Xbox 360 Posts: 3,210	^^ I remember C4 fcuking up the order of the episodes in season two so that we got In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum before Knives. Given the sheer brilliance and anticipation towards the former, that was some quality screwing up on C4's part!

14-04-2009, 12:51	#16
Trollheart Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,361	While we're here, why not do a top ten of our favourite episodes, and why? I'll be back when I've compiled my list (though you can bet "War without end", "Interludes" and "Zha'dum" will be among them!)

14-04-2009, 14:29	#17
Bester Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Staffordshire Moorlands Services: Zen Internet, Xbox 360 Posts: 3,210	^^ Perhaps we should discount some of the episodes as a given? I'm thinking that most people's lists would include the likes of; Babylon Squared The Coming of Shadows Severed Dreams War Without End Z'ha'dum Into the Fire Endgame Sleeping in Light I think, all of those would feature in my top 10. If we concentrated on episodes other than those mentioned above then I'd go with; Season 1 Mind War - Great introduction for both Bester and the Psi Cops. The Ironheart story itself wasn't that great, or at least the character wasn't. Thankfully Walter Koenig more than compensated with a stunning portrayal of Alfred Bester. Not surprisingly, one of my favourite characters from the show! Signs & Portents - It was a toss-up between this one and And the Sky Full of Stars. This one wins out because how could I NOT include the very first appearance of the Shadows?! The introduction of the extremely charismatic Mr Morden, and then the startling reveal of the Shadow vessel towards the end of the episode. The different reactions of the ambassadors to the question posed by Mr Morden is fascinating. A great, great episode IMO. Chrysalis - Wow! Just, wow! Who could have expected this?! I'm not inclined to compare B5 with Star Trek often, but it has to be said, Trek would NEVER have done something like this. Garibaldi's shocking gunning down was bad enough, but the sight of Earth Force One exploding was the icing on the cake. Plus, didn't we get to see Julie Nickson in night-time atire in this one? Much appreciated, hubba hubba! Season 2 The Long Dark - Summed up very easily by just saying "Dwight Schultz rocks!". I can't remember a better performance than the one he gives here. Absolutely phenomenal. The other thread makes mention of the quality of acting, but just look at the guest stars that appeared on the show. Some absolutely brilliant performances, and IMO, this is arguably the best! Not to mention, a pretty intruiging story in its own right, and a furtherment of the Shadow storyline. In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum - Arguably my favourite episode from the entire series. The thing I enjoy most about this one is that any one of us would have taken exactly the same actions had we been in his shoes. His wife was gone and here's the one guy who should know what happened to her. I'd lock him up and throw away the key as well! Plus, with Morden popping up from time to time, to have him pointedly confronted and interrogated here was a welcome reveal of sorts. The bit where Sheridan manipulates Talia to have her passively scan him, was brilliant, as was her reaction! Comes the Inquisitor - If the above isn't my favourite episode, then this one is. Fantastic story, tremendous performances from Mira and Bruce, and to top it all, a chillingly brilliant guest bit from Wayne Alexander as Sebastian. The Jack the Ripper link was a bit OTT, but the rest of the episode more than made up for it, and that's not even mentioning the G'kar subplot which in itself was superb. I can't find a major fault with this episode at all. Flawless in its execution, almost literally! Season 3 Interludes & Examinations - The death of Kosh, how could that NOT make the list?! The first, long-expected/desired open confrontation between the Vorlons and the Shadows, and finally, finally, the Shadows get a kicking! Tres coolness...... Shadow Dancing - Two fantastic stories to this one. The first, the opening encounter between the alliance and the Shadows, and the FX were awesome. There's one panning shot in particular mid-firefight that's just absolutely brilliant and easily stands up to anything that Trek was producing at the time on a much larger budget. The other side is the culmination of Franklin's walkabout, which again, was the perfect complement for the main story. Awesome stuff. Season 4 My season 4 picks would be the ones already discounted up top. Season 5 Day of the Dead - The first half of the fifth season is often much maligned, and rightly so to a certain degree, but it then becomes far too easy to overlook this gem hidden amongst the lesser episodes. Written by Neil Gaiman and fully reflecting his brilliance, this is a fantastic episode. Characters once departed, now back for a little while. It was nice to see Dodger back, and Morden is always good value, and I loved the bit where G'kar insisted on sleeping in C&C. One of the better standalones IMO. Objects at Rest - Narrowly beating out The Fall of Centauri Prime for my final pick. I've always been a fan of the Lord of the Rings novels, not least in part because of the way in which the resolution to the main story is resolved, but also, the fates of the characters. Tolkien affords the time to give his characters an ample, and deserved sendoff, and Straczynski affords his characters exactly the same luxury. As much as I'm ambivalent to the first half of the season, the later episodes were absolutely brilliant, and this is one of the best.

14-04-2009, 14:40	#18
andy24_1976 Inactive Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,575	I dunno how I'd pick favourites as I like the whole series it felt very ground-breaking at the times I couldn't guess what was gonna happen and who died, it would be nice to see it without knowing anything about it

14-04-2009, 14:46	#19
RebelScum Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Aberdeen Posts: 3,856	Severed Dreams The Long Twilight Struggle Shadow Dancing Between the Darkness & the Light Into the Fire Sleeping in Light Falling Toward Apotheosis Endgame Za'Ha'Dum Passing Through Gethasme The Summoning Interludes & Examinations Comes The Inquisitor ...I could go on...

14-04-2009, 17:30	#20
andy24_1976 Inactive Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,575	infection - I liked it and it showed that some people we're interested in weapons and people bonding with weapons plus IPX and that some factions we're after ancient tech

14-04-2009, 17:54	#21
Brigon Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Wales Services: BT Broadband Posts: 517	I watched Intersections in Real Time - Sheridan's interrogation a few nights ago. That episode was awesome.

14-04-2009, 18:49	#22
Trollheart Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,361	Yeah, what was I thinking? How could you choose? Oh well, better try.... Season 1 Babylon squared --- makes the top cut for me purely because of how fantasically cleverly this episode was written, to hook up with a concluding storyline that left you THREE YEARS to wait for! Weird when I first watched it, totally 24-carat gold when viewed in hindsight. Unsurpassable. And the sky full of stars --- Has to be up there, if not only for the fact that the REAL mystery starts to unfold in this ep ("You have a hole ... in your mind!"). One of the better performances by Michael O'Hare imo. Believers --- Everyone knows why I love this episode. Lexx was once described as "Star Trek on acid". This could possibly be Star Trek on coke! Or maybe not. Total, TOTAL mindblowing ending! A voice in the wilderness, part one and two --- Not only because it was the first two-parter, but also because it laid such important cornerstones to what would become Babylon 5's key to survival in later years. And we get our first mention of the First Ones (I think: it's been years since I sat down and watched it) Signs and portents --- For the same reasons given by Bester. Top class! Chrysalis --- You just couldn't leave it out, could you? At the end of season 1, the image of Earth Force One, turning over and over and then exploding was etched on my mind's eye... I'll tackle season 2 in my next post...

15-04-2009, 12:49	#25
Trollheart Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,361	"Face of the enemy" and "Intersections in real time" are again two episodes that show how far beyond the "Federation is honourable and always wins" idea of Star Trek Joe pushed Babylon 5, to a point where, to some degree (and a long time before 24 arrived on the scene) there were times when you thought: hell, Sheridan isn't going to come out of this one alive, or at least sane! That sort of blurring of the accepted norms (ie the good guy always wins/survives) is one of the founding cornerstones of Babylon 5, one of the things that marked it out as very special indeed, a new force to be reckoned with.