[blueplatinum]

First let me state my position of DTT. I think it is a waste of frequency ranges and that everyone should have switched to satellite TV as part of the digital switchover. Having said that, my point .....

Why is DTT not being used to save money by decommisioning selected relay transmitters?

Let me give you an example:

In Parbold in Lancashire the English speaking populus had to put up with Welsh TV from Moel-y-Park until the '80s. They were then given a "relay" which retransmitted signals from WInter Hill giving them the correct regions.

The thing is, that relay is now being upgraded to DTT. This is totally unnecessary. The DTT platform has much more capacity so why not just duplicate the North West England channels (Granada, BBC1 NW, BBC2 England etc.) on Meel-y-Park alongside the Welsh channels?

There are many "dead spots" being serviced by relays that are not dead spots at all, they are simply in the "footprint" (sorry, I know that is Sat speak) of the wrong transmitter. These transmitters could now carry multiple regions so eliminating the need for these expensive relays.

[lstar337]

Originally Posted by blueplatinum

First let me state my position of DTT. I think it is a waste of frequency ranges and that everyone should have switched to satellite TV as part of the digital switchover.

So the people who cant have a dish because they live in a listed building and the people who cannot get line of sight to the satellite will just have no TV?

Good plan.

[kev]

Originally Posted by blueplatinum

Let me give you an example:

In Parbold in Lancashire the English speaking populus had to put up with Welsh TV from Moel-y-Park until the '80s. They were then given a "relay" which retransmitted signals from WInter Hill giving them the correct regions.

The thing is, that relay is now being upgraded to DTT. This is totally unnecessary. The DTT platform has much more capacity so why not just duplicate the North West England channels (Granada, BBC1 NW, BBC2 England etc.) on Meel-y-Park alongside the Welsh channels?

What you are suggesting is an even more wasteful use of frequency resources, rather than targeting a few locations which because of geography use the wrong transmitter!

Anyway, where it is an advantage and sensible use of resources your suggestion is being used - for example:

Storeton (Wirral) relays Winter Hill to cover a poor coverage area across Merseyside (and is already broadcasting the full DTTV service), but will also provide the Welsh variants so that a number of coastal relays in north east Wales can be decommissioned.

I believe that transmitters like Leicester and Derby which are regional correctors (i.e. only carry ITV 1 and BBC East Midlands) will only be carrying the multiplexes needed - there is little advantage to be gained from carrying the East Midlands transmissions from Hull to Kings Lynn, to Peterbourgh, Worcester, and Stoke-on-Trent from Sutton Coldfield and Belmont just to provide a handful of viewers in parts of Nottingham, Leicester, and Derby with the correct local news programme!

[stuntmaster]

I run fully on a relay, West End is in a shadowed spot where Rowridge is too weak around 30% strength, 35% quality. and Hannington is too far out of reach.

Since West End is on the borders of southampton, we got a relay that relays Hannington into west end, that carrys North hampshires news, winchester/reading etc etc.
However the signal is superb, 100% quality, and between 95%-98% strength.

getting rid of relays isn't stupid, it can allow for some transmitters to reduce its beam power in some directions so people can get the proper variant, like hannigton only outputs from west to south east, north west to east is very weak so it doesnt clash with crystal palace, anyone thats just outside crystal palace can get palace via a relay without getting problems from hannington.

switching to satellite is a stupid suggestion, not everyone can:

recieve it
have it
afford it

not to mention the fact that if the wind and rain picks up then over time they *will* unalign and you will get no signal.
as they are so perscise to the actual degree. meaning you have to be on 28E to get a signal if at 27 or 29, you will most likely get nothing at all. an ariel however cans till get a picture, I mean mines hanging off the chimney at a wonkey angle yet I still get 100% quality.

[tammytastic]

Originally Posted by blueplatinum

First let me state my position of DTT. I think it is a waste of frequency ranges and that everyone should have switched to satellite TV as part of the digital switchover. Having said that, my point .....

Why is DTT not being used to save money by decommisioning selected relay transmitters?

Let me give you an example:

In Parbold in Lancashire the English speaking populus had to put up with Welsh TV from Moel-y-Park until the '80s. They were then given a "relay" which retransmitted signals from WInter Hill giving them the correct regions.

The thing is, that relay is now being upgraded to DTT. This is totally unnecessary. The DTT platform has much more capacity so why not just duplicate the North West England channels (Granada, BBC1 NW, BBC2 England etc.) on Meel-y-Park alongside the Welsh channels?

There are many "dead spots" being serviced by relays that are not dead spots at all, they are simply in the "footprint" (sorry, I know that is Sat speak) of the wrong transmitter. These transmitters could now carry multiple regions so eliminating the need for these expensive relays.

You seem to have a lot of opinions on this given you live in Gran Canaria. Are you a licence payer ?

[East]

I have been in Gran Ganaria can you please Tell me all the pubs and everyone watching the BBC without a licence and using a UK address to watch Pay Tv from Sky. Please post here if you have a VAILD POINT!!!!!!!.

SKY Please limit your signal again so they need to spend €300 for a dish enlargement

Start with XXXXXXpub oh sorry thats in Puerto Rico not Lanzarote also missing the Pint Glass from the bottom left hand corner COMMERCIAL RATES SKY whats going on abroad?????????????

[East]

Sorry I live In the UK so why should it bother me?????????? What is happening in the Canaries???????????

[radioredcat]

What you are suggesting might make sense to you but what you are not thinking about is all the people that will have to pay to have new aerials.

So if those people in the parbold area heard what you have said i'm sure they would tell what they think.

andy

[PudpullerTM]

Originally Posted by stuntmaster

I run fully on a relay, West
not to mention the fact that1. if the wind and rain picks up then over time they *will* unalign and you will get no signal.
as they are so perscise to the actual degree. meaning you have to be on 28E to get a signal if at 27 or 29, you will most likely get nothing at all.
.

Actually SES satellites are constantly moving they are only kept with a point in the sky. 28.2 is the centre of that point so gets the best signal.

and this wind and rain doesnt unalign the dish
am bored of people still trying to say Wind and rain are major problems on KU band signals. yes they are affected more than C Band but with skys redeigned dish hardly suffer any problems

Originally Posted by East

I have been in Gran Ganaria can
SKY Please limit your signal again so they need to spend €300 for a dish enlargement

Sky cannot tell SES Astra where to broadcast to SKY only rent Channels they boradcast to.
They do have their own uplinks (ability to broadcast to the satellite without sending it to SES ASTRA) but if they turn down that signal would mean bigger dishes in the UK also

[knightvaliant]

Living in S.W. Leicestershire we can here only get BBC/ITV/C4&5 from Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield (C5) the East Midlands signals from Waltham die before reaching us (both Analogue & Digital) - so whilst we get perfect Analogue and good digital from W.Midlands we miss 'local' (E.Midlands) news items. This isn't BBC or the other stations fault but Westminster splitting Midlands up - we never asked for it . As for Sky - where we can get E.Midlands (and the other regions) heavy rain or even dense cloud messes up the picture unless you have 100% signal and about 80% quality to start with. Remember when folks used to say it's p***ing it down - well at least we can stop in and watch the tele! --- they call it progress ---- mind you the programmes are so bad you're better watching a video !

[Deathwarmedup]

I know where I'd like to stick a satellite dish

[PudpullerTM]

Originally Posted by knightvaliant

Living in S.W. Leicestershire we can here only get BBC/ITV/C4&5 from Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield (C5) the East Midlands signals from Waltham die before reaching us (both Analogue & Digital) - so whilst we get perfect Analogue and good digital from W.Midlands we miss 'local' (E.Midlands) news items. This isn't BBC or the other stations fault but Westminster splitting Midlands up - we never asked for it . As for Sky - where we can get E.Midlands (and the other regions) heavy rain or even dense cloud messes up the picture unless you have 100% signal and about 80% quality to start with. Remember when folks used to say it's p***ing it down - well at least we can stop in and watch the tele! --- they call it progress ---- mind you the programmes are so bad you're better watching a video !

your dish has not been aligned properly

[PudpullerTM]

Originally Posted by Deathwarmedup

I know where I'd like to stick a satellite dish

100 cm or 50cm

[Deathwarmedup]

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

100 cm or 50cm

Sideways its all the same.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Originally Posted by blueplatinum

First let me state my position of DTT. I think it is a waste of frequency ranges and that everyone should have switched to satellite TV .

Not everyone can have a satellite dish or access to a feed from one. Also do you think it's a good thing in terms of national security for all the UK's TV to come from a satellite let alone one run by a private company based in a foreign country (albeit an EU member state)?

If all the land based TV was switched off, what would you want done with the 'Frequency ranges' whatever they are?

[PudpullerTM]

Originally Posted by Toxteth O'Grady

Not everyone can have a satellite dish or access to a feed from one. Also do you think it's a good thing in terms of national security for all the UK's TV to come from a satellite let alone one run by a private company based in a foreign country (albeit an EU member state)?

If all the land based TV was switched off, what would you want done with the 'Frequency ranges' whatever they are?

what as national security got to do with it. dont think russia will get all our secrets from corrie and eastenders

and sky comes from 5 of many satellites that can quickly be moved to compensate for any loss in service

[lstar337]

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

and sky comes from 5 of many satellites that can quickly be moved to compensate for any loss in service

Quickly?

What within minutes?

or even hours?

First we would need to contact SES, then they would need to locate one or more birds to cover the fault, then they would need to move the new birds into position.

Not exactly a quick operation.

If a transmitter gets a fault, a portion of the public go without TV for maybe a few hours or a day.

If a Satellite gets damaged, everyone in the UK loses TV for however long it takes to move another bird into position.

[PudpullerTM]

Originally Posted by lstar337

Quickly?

What within minutes?

or even hours?

First we would need to contact SES, then they would need to locate one or more birds to cover the fault, then they would need to move the new birds into position.

Not exactly a quick operation.

If a transmitter gets a fault, a portion of the public go without TV for maybe a few hours or a day.

If a Satellite gets damaged, everyone in the UK loses TV for however long it takes to move another bird into position.

I cant beleive you think SES dont CONSTANTLY MONITOR transponders and IMMEDIATELY know IF EVEN 1 CHANNEL goes down. there are 6 SATELLITES are 28.2 and plenty of redundency.
NO SKY Dont manage and control the Satellites neither do they monitor or fix them SES do all that.

how many times in the later 20 years has sky been off air for even half a day

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

what as national security got to do with it. dont think russia will get all our secrets from corrie and eastenders

These are peaceful times at the moment but they might not always be. Think back to World War 2, radio was a vital communication tool then. If something similar happened now TV would be too

Putting all TV communications into the hands of a foreign company using facilities out of the control of the UK would be very politically sensitive.

The ground based transmitters are foreign owned of course but at least they could be requisitioned by a government if the need arises... something they couldn't do with the SES satellites

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

I cant beleive you think SES dont CONSTANTLY MONITOR transponders and IMMEDIATELY know IF EVEN 1 CHANNEL goes down. there are 6 SATELLITES are 28.2 and plenty of redundency.
NO SKY Dont manage and control the Satellites neither do they monitor or fix them SES do all that.

how many times in the later 20 years has sky been off air for even half a day

Would SES have enough redundancy to provide service for all their clients if all the satellites in a particular orbital position (28.2 for example) was taken out?

It's not as far fetched a scenario as you may think, it would only need a solar flare or piece of space junk in the right place

[lstar337]

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

I cant beleive you think SES dont CONSTANTLY MONITOR transponders and IMMEDIATELY know IF EVEN 1 CHANNEL goes down.

I think your Caps Lock key is broken.

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

there are 6 SATELLITES are 28.2 and plenty of redundency.

Those 6 satellites are already running other services too, they are not all there for redundancy.

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

NO SKY Dont manage and control the Satellites neither do they monitor or fix them SES do all that.

Who said they did?

Certainly not me.

Originally Posted by PudpullerTM

how many times in the later 20 years has sky been off air for even half a day

So if it hasn't happened in the last 20 years, that means it wont ever happen?

I am glad you are not in charge of anything.

[PeterB]

Originally Posted by blueplatinum

First let me state my position of DTT. I think it is a waste of frequency ranges and that everyone should have switched to satellite TV as part of the digital switchover. Having said that, my point .....

Why is DTT not being used to save money by decommisioning selected relay transmitters?

Let me give you an example:

In Parbold in Lancashire the English speaking populus had to put up with Welsh TV from Moel-y-Park until the '80s. They were then given a "relay" which retransmitted signals from WInter Hill giving them the correct regions.

The thing is, that relay is now being upgraded to DTT. This is totally unnecessary. The DTT platform has much more capacity so why not just duplicate the North West England channels (Granada, BBC1 NW, BBC2 England etc.) on Meel-y-Park alongside the Welsh channels?

There are many "dead spots" being serviced by relays that are not dead spots at all, they are simply in the "footprint" (sorry, I know that is Sat speak) of the wrong transmitter. These transmitters could now carry multiple regions so eliminating the need for these expensive relays.

What makes you think that?

[kev]

Originally Posted by lstar337

Those 6 satellites are already running other services too, they are not all there for redundancy.

But less that 5/6 of the available capacity is being used - within minutes of a satellite being down it can move to another bird, and SES do this as a matter of routine anyway. There are also a lot of non essential channels (Sky Box Office for starters) broadcast which could be turned off while more redundant capacity is brought in if needed (Eutelsat certainly have had to do this a few times).

IIRC the 6 satellites at the same orbital position are spread over a distance of a few hundred (thousand?) square kilometres, so it would take a rather unfortunate series of events to knock six satellites out.

Taking down just five tv transmitters would cause around 50% of the UKs population to have no tv for months* (Crystal Palace and it's reserve Croydon, Sutton Coldfield and it's reserve Lichfield, and Winter Hill (no reserve) - IIRC only commercial TV from Crystal Palace has any form of backup at Croydon. - Peterbourgh and the surrounding area were without Classic FM and DAB radio for 36 hours when their mast collapsed and IIRC they were without BBC Radio for even longer, and when they returned they were operating at low power from a neighbouring mast - not every site has one of those, and it took seven months for a temporary mast to be constructed to allow full service to resume, and then more than the same again to complete the replacement mast.

It would take someone destroying SEVEN satellites operated by TWO companies spread over a larger area than the UK to lose the core TV stations entirely.

* London might get TV back sooner once the reserve mast has arrived from Sweden, but I wonder how long it would take to find a reserve for the West Midlands and North West?

[David (2)]

Some people cant have a satellite dish - listed building issues.
- this would need to be fixed by our gov if any tv masts (relay or otherwise) were to close.

Not every house can pick up a satellite signal - the signal is not straight up as many people think. Close obstructions such as other buildings and tree's will prevent reception. In some cases, the dish could be installed in a better location to see around the obstruction, but clearly this is not an option for all examples.

DTT cant support a feature such a multiple regions - such as what you have on satellite with the various BBC versions with the capacity "stuck" at current and post-DSO levels. The gov want the spare uhf frequencies to be sold of, so they can get the money for them. Even the future FreeviewHD service is going to be using the current Freeview capacity!

[mjk79]

Originally Posted by stuntmaster

I run fully on a relay, West End is in a shadowed spot where Rowridge is too weak around 30% strength, 35% quality. and Hannington is too far out of reach.

Since West End is on the borders of southampton, we got a relay that relays Hannington into west end, that carrys North hampshires news, winchester/reading etc etc.
However the signal is superb, 100% quality, and between 95%-98% strength.

There is no digital relay site in Southampton until switchover so you really are receiving a signal from Hannington.

So actually the fact that you can receive a digital signal from a more distant main transmitter through all sorts of obstacles and with an aerial 'hanging off at a wonky angle', especially whilst that transmitter is still operating at low power kind of knocks your argument about how 'vital' some relay sites really are.

At switchover however you will be able to receive the correct local ITV content from a digital relay at Hatch Bottom, presumably in your case this relay would otherwise be a complete waste of time.