[Nick_G]

This looks likely to happen over the next 5-10 years. Something that has occured to me about this:

We are told that once the first DAB+ stations start to broadcast they will be continued on old DAB for a long while until there is justification to switch them off. In the meantime, how is this going to work? To have duplicates of everything on DAB+ would mean doubling the amount of spectrum available. We are also told that there is no more spectrum available, so an awful lot will have to be allocated for this to happen. Presumably this spectrum would then be vacated once everything has moved over to DAB+.

Are there plans to free up spectrum to allow this to happen? If not, I really can't see how it's going to work. It all sounds like a big mess, and it's a shame that DAB+ wasn't adopted in the first place.

There's an interesting interview with Tony Moretta on 'You and Yours' - the subject of 'the Great Analogue Switch Off' starts at 34 min 35 secs. Interesting that he plays down DAB+.

Mr. Moran must have left that studio feeling very dizzy - spin city!

[Les Wires]

Technology and codecs are bound to improve as years pass.

The question is - Does the UK jump from mp2 to aac+ or await for the next advance and move from mp2 to the successor of aac+

To change your infrastructure every time a new improved codec comes along may not be the most effective option.

Perhaps every 20 years may be a more practical approach

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by Nick_G

Are there plans to free up spectrum to allow this to happen? If not, I really can't see how it's going to work.

There will be enough band 3 spectrum for a BBC national mux, a commercial national mux D1, a regional mux expanded nationally and a local mux and that uses up all the band 3 in the UK for broadcasting.
Band L has been allocated by auction to Qualcomm who can do what they want, they might use it for mobile TV rather than DAB+.
Therefore current DAB will be the norm for portable and car use without the need for any subscriptions, Many who live in areas where the DAB signal is strong seem happy with the current DAB audio quality.

But more DAB sets like the Pure Flow and Roberts wm202 will also feature wifi for higher quality audio radio at home for those with internet subscriptions with decent download allowance! Or just hook up some decent speakers to a PC!
More Nokia or iphone internet radio handsets might also be used!

It is possible that later some UK muxes might have space for some test DAB+ stations or band 2 might have space to test DRM+.

[woodysdad]

Show me DAB+ on an Ofcom site and I'll start to believe!

[thelem]

I don't see why any DAB+ station would broadcast on DAB, as DAB+ is just DAB with a more effieience codec (and a high quality DAB station will be better quality than a DAB and a DAB+ station sharing the same bandwidth).

My prediction is that all "major" stations (i.e. large towns, heart/galaxy locations and current digital stations like planet rock) will be broadcast on either FM, DAB or both. The smaller stations will be either FM only or DAB+ only, and nothing will broadcast on AM. Over time, more DAB stations will transition to DAB+, as the lower transmission costs outweigh the lower audience.

[Westward]

Originally Posted by woodysdad

Show me DAB+ on an Ofcom site and I'll start to believe!

It was mentioned in their Digital Britain response (regarding small-scale stations):

"A migration of DAB to DAB+ may provide an answer for some of these stations in the future...."

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radio/ifi/ra...igitalbrit.pdf

page 24

It was also mentioned in the Digital Britain report that all radios sold in the UK in future will be WorldDMB Profile 1 (in other words, DAB+ enabled).

I don't blame Tony Moretta, he is just spinning the party line that the UK will be using DAB version 1 forever and a day, that's what his bosses expect him to say.

As with mobile phones, HD TV etc these things tend to be market led and I would expect the BBC to be using 128k AAC on their multiplex by 2013 (the next licence period) to give equivalent audio quality to their internet streams.

thelem is right, as the percentage of DAB owners with MP2-only sets diminishes the commercial arguments for switching will become greater.

[choppie]

Originally Posted by Les Wires

Technology and codecs are bound to improve as years pass.

The question is - Does the UK jump from mp2 to aac+ or await for the next advance and move from mp2 to the successor of aac+

To change your infrastructure every time a new improved codec comes along may not be the most effective option.

Perhaps every 20 years may be a more practical approach

I heard ages ago that DAB+ radios would be 'future proof' and be able to adopt the latest codecs as they came along.

I must admit, I did hear this along time ago. I am not certain, but I think I heard it when they were still working out the specification for DAB+.

Can anyone tell me if my information on this is correct, or if the specification has changed?

[Les Wires]

Originally Posted by choppie

I heard ages ago that DAB+ radios would be 'future proof' and be able to adopt the latest codecs as they came along.

I must admit, I did hear this along time ago. I am not certain, but I think I heard it when they were still working out the specification for DAB+.

Can anyone tell me if my information on this is correct, or if the specification has changed?

A few are, the vast majority aren't. I cannot imagine the British public buying another DAB radio simply to get the up to date codec.

In fairness to the manufacturers you cannot future-proof equipment against something that hasn't been invented, although quite a few models were designed after the dab+ format had been introduced.

I really cannot see any chance of mass migration to aac+ in the UK, by the time a migration can be justified to the listener we will probably have DAB++ and this may be the more sensible time to upgrade the network.

[AuralJunkie]

A migration to DAB+ would be easy to manage with enough extra channels.
You would need to retain existing services as standard DAB for some considerable time as there are several million existing users. As DAB+ recievers are backwards compatable with DAB you could either:-

... leave things as they are and just add new stations or multiplexes as DAB+

or... double up on National stations that would most benefit from the potential uplift in quality on a new network (suggest Radio's 1, 2, 3, 6 Music & 1 Xtra plus Absolute & Classic FM), and then infill accordingly. You could probably slot in several DAB+ stations on D1.

These options will protect the investment in DAB of existing users AND provide an incentive for others to change to DAB+ without loss of stations already enjoyed on DAB. Providing the core BBC music services get a decent bitrate on DAB+ it could also deal with the quality issues that FM listeners have. This wouldn't apply to Classic FM as it is already better quality on DAB than FM, as on FM they use built in compression for in car listeners. On DAB that is something you can opt in or out of.

That was simple! Do I get offered a job with OFCOM now?

[Les Wires]

Originally Posted by AuralJunkie

A migration to DAB+ would be easy to manage with enough extra channels.
You would need to retain existing services as standard DAB for some considerable time as there are several million existing users. As DAB+ recievers are backwards compatable with DAB you could either:-

... leave things as they are and just add new stations or multiplexes as DAB+

or... double up on National stations that would most benefit from the potential uplift in quality on a new network (suggest Radio's 1, 2, 3, 6 Music & 1 Xtra plus Absolute & Classic FM), and then infill accordingly. You could probably slot in several DAB+ stations on D1.

These options will protect the investment in DAB of existing users AND provide an incentive for others to change to DAB+ without loss of stations already enjoyed on DAB. Providing the core BBC music services get a decent bitrate on DAB+ it could also deal with the quality issues that FM listeners have. This wouldn't apply to Classic FM as it is already better quality on DAB than FM, as on FM they use built in compression for in car listeners. On DAB that is something you can opt in or out of.

That was simple! Do I get offered a job with OFCOM now?

It is a simple solution unfortunately the only thing missing would be listeners. Look how long it has taken to sell the current radios.

Perhaps you are correct but codec development is on-going and the next generation will be along soon at better quality and less bandwidth than DAB+

Slightly OT but what happened to the idea of DRM+ replacing FM services in Band II ? Has that been totally dropped.

Going further OT, has DRM as a replacement for AM been scrapped?

[disrember]

Originally Posted by Nick_G

the first DAB+ stations start to broadcast they will be continued on old DAB for a long while until there is justification to switch them off. In the meantime, how is this going to work? To have duplicates of everything on DAB+ would mean doubling the amount of spectrum available.

I think the plan is that when the DAB+ station starts, the old DAB would keep broadcasting at the lowest possible bit rate, to encourage people to upgrade with switching off the old dab.

[soulboy77]

Perhaps the local muxes that have yet to launch, should be DAB+ from day one.

[Andy2]

Would DAB+ actually do any good? Broadcasters have mucked up their audio quality by demanding more stations be crammed into existing bandwidth - wouldn't they do the same stupid trick whatever 'whiz-bang' technology they used?

[soulboy77]

Originally Posted by Andy2

Would DAB+ actually do any good? Broadcasters have mucked up their audio quality by demanding more stations be crammed into existing bandwidth - wouldn't they do the same stupid trick whatever 'whiz-bang' technology they used?

You may be right. Unless there are some meaningful prescribed minimum standards we will be back at square one.

[vinnielo]

There are some samples of recordings from Australia's DAB+ broadcasts.
http://www.starvision.net/digitalradio/
What does everyone think of the quality?

[Tassium]

The problem is that the business model of digital radio tends to produce tat, and lots of it!

Instead of talk of DAB/DAB+ we should be talking of the developement of a Pay-Radio model.

No one would expect magazines to survive and have the depth of range that they do have if they only had revenue from advertising to support them


As we have seen with digital terrestrial TV more channels/stations is not the answer.

[James Martin 2]

Well - the oldest generation of DTT boxes - notably old ONDigital kit - are becoming rendered useless by the advances in the technology.

So I think it's justifiable to move DAB on.

[soulboy77]

Originally Posted by James Martin 2

Well - the oldest generation of DTT boxes - notably old ONDigital kit - are becoming rendered useless by the advances in the technology.

So I think it's justifiable to move DAB on.

Perhaps the government could instigate a money off trade-in scheme for non-upgradeable DAB radios to lessen the impact.

[Tassium]

Originally Posted by vinnielo

There are some samples of recordings from Australia's DAB+ broadcasts.
http://www.starvision.net/digitalradio/
What does everyone think of the quality?

I'm sure ten years ago people were posting samples of mp2 (DAB) at 256kbit/320kbit and asking what others thought of it.


There is no need for a more efficient codec, just a more robust signal that handles listening while moving without flaws and preferably allows some kind of pay-radio system.

[stephenejones]

Originally Posted by Tassium

There is no need for a more efficient codec, just a more robust signal that handles listening while moving without flaws and preferably allows some kind of pay-radio system.

Better signals, and combined with less stations on each multiplex and with better planning and usage of multiplexes, bitrates can be improved.

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by Tassium

Instead of talk of DAB/DAB+ we should be talking of the developement of a Pay-Radio model.

There is a thread on this
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...=114235&page=2
Clive Dicken of Absolute is asking whether people would pay £10 a year for ad-free online radio streaming.

Originally Posted by Les Wires

Perhaps you are correct but codec development is on-going and the next generation will be along soon at better quality and less bandwidth than DAB+

Slightly OT but what happened to the idea of DRM+ replacing FM services in Band II ? Has that been totally dropped.

Going further OT, has DRM as a replacement for AM been scrapped?

The digital britain final report says

DAB+ is a non-backward compliant variant of DAB which utilises newer compression techniques providing a more spectrum efficient broadcast signal. Digital Radio Mondiale or DRM was designed to use Long, Medium and Short wave bands to deliver digital radio. It broadcasts via single station transmissions, rather than a multiplex. DMB(A) is the audio-only technology evolving from T-DMB which was developed in Korea for the delivery of digital TV services.The WorldDMB Digital Radio Profiles specify a minimum set of requirements to be built in to different class of receivers, ensuring that they operate across Europe. Digital Radio Profile 1 requires a receiver to be able to receive DAB, DAB+ and DMB-A, alongside basic text and visual services.

But only suggests Internet and DAB radio on page 94 and 95

Digital radio is not now, nor should it be in the future, a single platform medium. The Internet, mobile broadband, in particular, will have a role in radio’s future. However, it is our belief that listener behaviour has already provided a compelling argument for a broadcast specific platform for radio, and for DAB, which if actively encouraged now can bring benefits to listeners and broadcasters in the immediate and longer term. We also believe that DAB, as the broadcast specific platform for radio, can co-exist alongside the other means of digital distribution because it offers specific benefits to the listener.

20. We are clear that at least for the foreseeable future DAB is the right technology for the UK. However, it has always been our intention that the ultra-local services which remain on FM after the Digital Radio Upgrade should only do so temporarily. To ensure, as much as possible, that any additional digital upgrade will have a minimal impact on listeners we will seek to ensure that all digital
adio receivers sold in the UK meet at least the WorldDMB profile 1.17 One way this could be achieved is by clear labelling such as the ‘digital tick’ used in Digital TV Switchover.

Therefore sets could be upgraded to band 3 DAB+ or maybe even band 2 DRM+ in the future.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Originally Posted by James Martin 2

Well - the oldest generation of DTT boxes - notably old ONDigital kit - are becoming rendered useless by the advances in the technology.

So I think it's justifiable to move DAB on.

It would put 'digital radio' back about 10 years and would discourage most consumers to buy any 'digital radio' ever again.

Most won't understand or care that the old one is DAB and the new one they need to buy is DAB+... they'll just be totally annoyed and will lose any trust they had in new technology

[James Martin 2]

But the technology is no good. It's madness to make all these people lose their quality FM stereo signal, only to have to put up with some 64k mono mush.

Also, remember that digital TV's swtich has been very quick as people subscribed to a service that gave them extra content - and it was this that was upgraded to digital, but took on the content the viewer previously had for free, so that they could recieve this digitally.;

Whereas with radio, it's all free to air so upgrading isn't so justifiable as with Sky, people were willing to move to SkyDigital because they were already paying for the service.

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by James Martin 2

It's madness to make all these people lose their quality FM stereo signal, only to have to put up with some 64k mono mush.

The only FM station that uses simulcasts in 64k mono DAB is Kerrang and this might be improved!

[James Martin 2]

Touch Coventry does as well - and has done since the Kix days.