FreeviewHD may be Copy Protected - Freeview

chris2k2 · 03-09-2009, 14:11

Article on DS now says BBC is looking into making Freeview HD copy protected.

Click Here

Be interesting how it will work. Will they do it to stop recording HD to a DVD/HDD recorder, or something similar to Sky HD, where you can archive HD via scart but has SD (but better pic) if that makes sense

savvy · 03-09-2009, 14:37

Probably the same way it works now on BBC HD Freesat.

There is a "copy once" flag, which allows you to archive it to an external USB HDD, and back again, but when copied once, it will not let you do it again. You can only play it back on the PVR it was originally recorded on.

On Panasonic Freesat HD Bluray recorders, it allows you to burn to Bluray, but then you can't copy the Bluray.

Rgds.

Les.

Nigel Goodwin · 03-09-2009, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris2k2

Article on DS now says BBC is looking into making Freeview HD copy protected.

Click Here

Be interesting how it will work. Will they do it to stop recording HD to a DVD/HDD recorder, or something similar to Sky HD, where you can archive HD via scart but has SD (but better pic) if that makes sense

I don't really see as this is news at all?, must be a quiet news day

I doubt anyone thought it wouldn't be copy protected, it is on Sky, it is on Freesat, and it is on BluRay - that's why HDMI is used, and Component isn't any more - for the HDCP.

mossy2103 · 03-09-2009, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

I don't really see as this is news at all?, must be a quiet news day

I doubt anyone thought it wouldn't be copy protected, it is on Sky, it is on Freesat, and it is on BluRay - that's why HDMI is used, and Component isn't any more - for the HDCP.

Although, having said that, there still seem to be people who can't grasp the reasoning behind that (especially judging by some posts in the Sat forums), and others will simply be unaware. So it will be news for some.

lstar337 · 03-09-2009, 15:27

This was to be expected really.

Quote:

On Panasonic Freesat HD Bluray recorders, it allows you to burn to Bluray, but then you can't copy the Bluray.

Bet you can.

Everything Goes · 03-09-2009, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lstar337

This was to be expected really.

Bet you can.

Indeed you can copy BluRay discs

pzboyz · 04-09-2009, 17:46

another technology waiting to be broken ...

The Best · 05-09-2009, 15:43

yeah, lets copy protect two pints of lager and a packet of crisps HD and broadcast that for another four years.

good thinking bbc! glad you're wasting your time with this instead of making new tv programmes.

mossy2103 · 05-09-2009, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Best

yeah, lets copy protect two pints of lager and a packet of crisps HD and broadcast that for another four years.

So that is all that is ever broadcast across all BBC channels is it?

I wasn't even aware that Two Pints was made and broadcast in HD.

gunfleet · 06-09-2009, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Best

yeah, lets copy protect two pints of lager and a packet of crisps HD and broadcast that for another four years.

good thinking bbc! glad you're wasting your time with this instead of making new tv programmes.

They're wasting OUR money as well, more powerful CPU's will be required in the Freeview+HD STB's to cope with the DRM overhead. I recently (13/08/09) lost the use of iPlayer on my G4 mac because of "upgraded" copy protection.

Do yourself a favour and hang on to your VCRs and plenty of E180's.

elfcurry · 06-09-2009, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

I don't really see as this is news at all?, must be a quiet news day

I doubt anyone thought it wouldn't be copy protected, it is on Sky, it is on Freesat, and it is on BluRay - that's why HDMI is used, and Component isn't any more - for the HDCP.

It's news to me. I didn't know there was a mechanism to do this and hadn't thought about it.

So it IS news even if quite a lot of people who use other delivery systems already know about it and us Freeviewers don't.

mikeydb · 06-09-2009, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by elfcurry

It's news to me. I didn't know there was a mechanism to do this and hadn't thought about it.

So it IS news even if quite a lot of people who use other delivery systems already know about it and us Freeviewers don't.

This kind of copy protection is pretty much standard with most HD sources and isn't really news. A box that didn't work with it probably wouldn't have a nice HDMI output on it.

mossy2103 · 06-09-2009, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

They're wasting OUR money as well, more powerful CPU's will be required in the Freeview+HD STB's to cope with the DRM overhead. I recently (13/08/09) lost the use of iPlayer on my G4 mac because of "upgraded" copy protection.

Do yourself a favour and hang on to your VCRs and plenty of E180's.

Not only has technological progress always tended to be more power-hungry, I bet that few PCs/macs of a number of years ago would be powerful enough to cope with generic HD content anyway.

To somehow portray iPlayer copy protection as wasteful in that respect is being rather creative I feel.

As for supposedly wasting "our money", they cannot. We, the consumer, take the decision to buy into a particular technology or upgrade, and that is done with at least an informed view. No-one is forced to do anything if they consider it to be wasteful.

gunfleet · 06-09-2009, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossy2103

Not only has technological progress always tended to be more power-hungry, I bet that few PCs/macs of a number of years ago would be powerful enough to cope with generic HD content anyway.

To somehow portray iPlayer copy protection as wasteful in that respect is being rather creative I feel.

This was standard content on iPlayer not HD, the BBC have acknowledged the issue and stated that they did not intend to lock out G4/5 mac users. However they have, and the cause is the DRM, which IMHO is not required on content already paid for by the TVL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossy2103

As for supposedly wasting "our money", they cannot. We, the consumer, take the decision to buy into a particular technology or upgrade, and that is done with at least an informed view. No-one is forced to do anything if they consider it to be wasteful.

No doubt the standards will change (again) at some stage which gives the "choice" upgrade, or lose your TV viewing, is that a choice?

Consider the current DTT STB requirements, my 87 year old mother is already on her 3rd STB, the first bricked on a software update (out of guarantee), the 2nd on the split NIT issue. Even her current STB chokes on the subtitles occasionally presumably due to MHEG updates. Her area (Cornwall) has only just achieved DSO and has already cost her £90 for STB's and £150 for a new aerial.

My current (also 3rd) STB will not update to the latest MHEG as the manufacturer no longer issues updates. Presumably now anyone who has spent £200+ on a PVR will need another one for HD+ encryption?

Nigel Goodwin · 06-09-2009, 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

However they have, and the cause is the DRM, which IMHO is not required on content already paid for by the TVL.

Might be your opinion, but it would be completely incorrect, and what has it got to do with TVL anyway?.

Quote:

Presumably now anyone who has spent £200+ on a PVR will need another one for HD+ encryption?

How can you expect an existing item to support a service that still doesn't exist? - and you'd struggle finding a Freeview PVR that cost £200+ these days.

In any case, you wouldn't 'need' a new PVR, just stick as you are, with SD programming - it's not like there's going to be a lot of HD channels.

gunfleet · 06-09-2009, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Might be your opinion, but it would be completely incorrect, and what has it got to do with TVL anyway?

Why is it incorrect? I have paid (via the TVL) for the right to view the content, why should my rights be restricted by Copy Protection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

How can you expect an existing item to support a service that still doesn't exist? - and you'd struggle finding a Freeview PVR that cost £200+ these days.

In any case, you wouldn't 'need' a new PVR, just stick as you are, with SD programming - it's not like there's going to be a lot of HD channels.

My point was that these decisions do cost the consumer money, either directly by upgrading hardware or indirectly by funding changes or research by the BBC, I personally would welcome HD and want to be able to watch it , however I will not be making any investment in kit (when it comes out) until I'm fairly confident that the beeb boffins have stopped "playing" with the tech.

mossy2103 · 06-09-2009, 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

This was standard content on iPlayer not HD, the BBC have acknowledged the issue and stated that they did not intend to lock out G4/5 mac users.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Quote:

However they have, and the cause is the DRM, which IMHO is not required on content already paid for by the TVL.

An opinion that quite possibly is somewhat biased, and would not be shared by the BBC or any legal experts I would have thought.

Quote:

No doubt the standards will change (again) at some stage which gives the "choice" upgrade, or lose your TV viewing, is that a choice?

Yep, it's happened with many consumer devices, the recent examples being STBs.

Things change, technology changes, people embark upon a quest to improve. It might be annoying, it might mean taht you are always playing catch up, but that is life.

Quote:

My current (also 3rd) STB will not update to the latest MHEG as the manufacturer no longer issues updates.

Yes, it's known as obsolescence. Manufacturers, especially those at the bottom/mid end of the markets, will only support a discontinued product for so long. It happens with STBs, PVRs, blu-ray players, even software applications and operating systems. It is nothing new.

Quote:

Presumably now anyone who has spent £200+ on a PVR will need another one for HD+ encryption?

If they want HD delivered by that platform, then yes. However, migration to new technology is not compulsory (until of course the existing technology/platforms/delivery systems are phased out, as happened with 405-line television for example).

mossy2103 · 06-09-2009, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

Why is it incorrect? I have paid (via the TVL) for the right to view the content, why should my rights be restricted by Copy Protection?

You paid for a TV Licence to allow you to legally view live TV as it is broadcast, as required by law. It gives you no other rights, and certainly no ownership rights over any BBC content.

Quote:

Do I need a TV Licence if I only watch programmes online?

It makes no difference how you watch TV - whether it's on your laptop, PC or mobile phone or through a digital box, DVD recorder or TV set - if you use any device to watch or record television programmes at the same time (or virtually the same time) as they're being shown on TV, the law requires you to be covered by a TV Licence. This type of TV is often described as "live" TV or simulcasting.

Examples of websites that allow you to watch television programmes as they are being shown on TV are:

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/playlive/)
ITV (http://www.itv.com/)
Sky (http://skyplayer.sky.com/vod/page/default/home.do)

There are a number of other websites that also offer this service. If you use any of these websites you will need to be covered by a TV Licence.

You do not need to be covered by a TV licence:

* If you are using these websites to watch television programmes that are not being shown on TV at the same time. This is often described as a "catch up" service.
* To view video clips on the internet, as long as what you are viewing is not being shown on TV at the same time as you are viewing it.

http://tvlicensing.metafaq.com/templ...A1R40LOF5C5AFO

gunfleet · 06-09-2009, 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossy2103

You paid for a TV Licence to allow you to legally view live TV as it is broadcast, as required by law. It gives you no other rights.

Neither does it remove my rights to copy, strip out protection etc. as I see fit. That the broadcaster has certain Copy Right obligations is not my concern, I can't see any reasonable court prosecuting a licensed viewer for keeping their Eastenders episodes longer than 7 days (or whatever the current limitation is).

Why add the protection anyway if it is so easily defeated, most record companies and distributors like iTunes have now stopped this practice as it degraded the product.

I understand obsolescence regarding the hardware, and of course the manufacturers have to make a living, but it does seem far more frequent of late. If the broadcasters engineers were a bit more thoughtful and less keen to rush out changes I'm sure effects on the consumer could be minimised.

mossy2103 · 06-09-2009, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

Neither does it remove my rights to copy, strip out protection etc. as I see fit.

It's news to me that you have any legal rights in those areas. Could you enlighten me please?

Quote:

That the broadcaster has certain Copy Right obligations is not my concern,

It should be, especially as it directly affects what you can do, but maybe you know something that many others do not?

Quote:

I can't see any reasonable court prosecuting a licensed viewer for keeping their Eastenders episodes longer than 7 days (or whatever the current limitation is).

Are you well-versed in the legalities at work here then?

Quote:

I understand obsolescence regarding the hardware, and of course the manufacturers have to make a living, but it does seem far more frequent of late. If the broadcasters engineers were a bit more thoughtful and less keen to rush out changes I'm sure effects on the consumer could be minimised.

The pace of technological change has indeed speeded up across all sectors. Having said that, I do feel that your insistence that the broadcast engineers "rush out changes" is wrong. Still, it is only an opinion.

gunfleet · 06-09-2009, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossy2103

It's news to me that you have any legal rights in those areas. Could you enlighten me please?

It should be, especially as it directly affects what you can do, but maybe you know something that many others do not?

Are you well-versed in the legalities at work here then?

It is a civil matter, the BBC would need to demonstrate their loss incurred as a result of my keeping an Eastenders episode for longer than 7 days, that would be interesting.

Of course I do not have an episode of EE as that would be a waste of disk space. I do however have a rather nice series of the excellent BBC2 series of Arena on video cassette, perhaps they could take this into consideration

, along with the millions of other viewers who have kept their off-air tapes over the years. There is of course no loss to the BBC, if they released the material on DVD I would happily pay for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossy2103

The pace of technological change has indeed speeded up across all sectors. Having said that, I do feel that your insistence that the broadcast engineers "rush out changes" is wrong. Still, it is only an opinion.

Well as I said in an earlier post it cost my pensioner mother 3 new STB's in less than 2 years, it may be the box manufacturers as much as the broadcasters fault but it still seems unreasonable to the average viewer.

How many people I wonder will be surprised when they find out that the tuners in their "HD Ready" expensive LCD TVs will not actually receive HD broadcasts.

grahamlthompson · 06-09-2009, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

How many people I wonder will be surprised when they find out that the tuners in their "HD Ready" expensive LCD TVs will not actually receive HD broadcasts.

Only those who bought from Currys or Comet

Everything Goes · 06-09-2009, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

Only those who bought from Currys or Comet

Its a golden opportunity for Comet & Currys to con more people out of their hard earned dosh by getting them to buy "HD Now" TM TV's

Nigel Goodwin · 06-09-2009, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

Why is it incorrect? I have paid (via the TVL) for the right to view the content, why should my rights be restricted by Copy Protection?

You seem to have a very strange idea of what 'rights' paying the TV licence gives you.

Quote:

My point was that these decisions do cost the consumer money, either directly by upgrading hardware or indirectly by funding changes or research by the BBC, I personally would welcome HD and want to be able to watch it , however I will not be making any investment in kit (when it comes out) until I'm fairly confident that the beeb boffins have stopped "playing" with the tech.

It's always a good idea to 'wait and see', early adopters pay a premium.

However, if you expect improvements and changes to be cost free, you're dreaming.

Winston_1 · 06-09-2009, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunfleet

Well as I said in an earlier post it cost my pensioner mother 3 new STB's in less than 2 years, it may be the box manufacturers as much as the broadcasters fault but it still seems unreasonable to the average viewer.

In that case they were all under guarantee as EU legislation gives you a 2 year guarantee on electrical products.

03-09-2009, 14:11	#1
chris2k2 Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Merseyside Services: Sky+HD, VM 2Meg, Wharfedale HDD/DVD, Freeview Posts: 7,989	FreeviewHD may be Copy Protected Article on DS now says BBC is looking into making Freeview HD copy protected. Click Here Be interesting how it will work. Will they do it to stop recording HD to a DVD/HDD recorder, or something similar to Sky HD, where you can archive HD via scart but has SD (but better pic) if that makes sense

03-09-2009, 14:37	#2
savvy Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawkwell, Essex Services: Humax Foxsat HDR, Humax 9300T, Bluebell Hill TX, Sony KDL-46W4500 Posts: 1,911	Probably the same way it works now on BBC HD Freesat. There is a "copy once" flag, which allows you to archive it to an external USB HDD, and back again, but when copied once, it will not let you do it again. You can only play it back on the PVR it was originally recorded on. On Panasonic Freesat HD Bluray recorders, it allows you to burn to Bluray, but then you can't copy the Bluray. Rgds. Les.

04-09-2009, 17:46	#7
pzboyz Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Nr. Swindon Services: HXD870, DHD4000 160GB, Boxee, AppleTV, PlusNet, iMacG4, ReadyNAS Posts: 188	another technology waiting to be broken ...

05-09-2009, 15:43	#8
The Best Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Services: Freeview, AOL Broadband Posts: 36	yeah, lets copy protect two pints of lager and a packet of crisps HD and broadcast that for another four years. good thinking bbc! glad you're wasting your time with this instead of making new tv programmes.