How much has CANVAS cost so far...? - Broadcasting

Lawrencetero · 12-10-2009, 10:08

Does anyone know how much money the bbc have poured into this project so far?

will the system be open to all broadcasters? or just who the bbc select?

Hewjars · 12-10-2009, 15:18

is there an echo in here?

The Phazer · 12-10-2009, 15:27

Quote:

will the system be open to all broadcasters? or just who the bbc select?

It's a joint venture of many groups with equal stake, so the BBC only have a minority say in any decision anyway.

From the consultation being on the platform will be open to anyone who meets various criteria. Being a member of the joint venture might itself might not be.

Phazer

zz9 · 12-10-2009, 15:35

Article about Canvas and how it's open and free for any manufacturer to incorporate into their STBs or PVRs, which of course has pissed off the manufacturers because many, Sony especially, love trying to create their own format that they can force everyone to use and charge licensing fees for. (Anyone remember Betamax? ATRAC? MiniDisc? DAT?)

The Phazer · 12-10-2009, 15:58

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcintern...canvas_un.html

Phazer

iain · 12-10-2009, 16:01

call me cynical, but should the answer, whatever it might be, simply be far too much, and an absolutely disgraceful wast of licence fee money?

Iain

mossy2103 · 12-10-2009, 16:07

This is what I posted in the other, slightly duplicate thread, gleaned from a very simple and straightforward Google search with just a few keywords:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...98&postcount=5

iain · 12-10-2009, 18:03

£6m?

that's more than i'll earn in a lifetime.

i'm going to have to eat my words, and concede that it is disgraceful, and does make me kinda

Iain

Jellied Eel · 12-10-2009, 18:17

If it's an open platform, why haven't the full specifications for it been made open yet?

mikw · 12-10-2009, 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

If it's an open platform, why haven't the full specifications for it been made open yet?

Must be some evil, maniacal conspiracy, eh JE?

u006852 · 12-10-2009, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikw

Must be some evil, maniacal conspiracy, eh JE?

Wait for the page long diatribe expalining why it is!

mikw · 12-10-2009, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by u006852

Wait for the page long diatribe expalining why it is!

He's working on it now i expect!

Jellied Eel · 12-10-2009, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by u006852

Wait for the page long diatribe expalining why it is!

No need. Look at the very limited information on the Trust site about Canvas. It's obvious it's not an open system.

iain · 12-10-2009, 18:53

so it issome evil, maniacal conspiracy then?

cripes!

Iain

Jellied Eel · 12-10-2009, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by iain

so it issome evil, maniacal conspiracy then?

No conspiracy, just a not very open system, with the usual suspects in charge of the UI and EPG. One of the more detailed parts of the Trust documentation seemed to me to be the justification for BBC holding the top EPG slots.

But on an open, user friendly system, why shouldn't you be able to make your own 'top 10' list of favourite channels? Or have a 'favourites' menu item on the top level of the UI?

mikw · 12-10-2009, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

No conspiracy, just a not very open system, with the usual suspects in charge of the UI and EPG. One of the more detailed parts of the Trust documentation seemed to me to be the justification for BBC holding the top EPG slots.

But on an open, user friendly system, why shouldn't you be able to make your own 'top 10' list of favourite channels? Or have a 'favourites' menu item on the top level of the UI?

Hey, i've a novel suggestion for you, shall we just wait and see before assuming the usual "BBC is evil" mantra?

Jellied Eel · 12-10-2009, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikw

Hey, i've a novel suggestion for you, shall we just wait and see before assuming the usual "BBC is evil" mantra?

Yeh, sure someone may have said that about the risk of Germany and Poland a while back.

Once boxes start shipping, it may be too late. Sky's response sums one of the problems up quite nicely-

Technical specification
2.11. For a set of Proposals positioned as “a standards based open environment for internet connected TV platforms” (as per p.10 of the Executive’s Summary), Sky considers it remarkable that the technical standards remain unspecified (and more remarkable still that the Trust is seeking to reach provisional conclusions in respect of them) and that the means by which they will be developed remain unsettled.

Especially given in another thread, CE manufacturers at a DTG workshop on Canvas are still asking for the specifications as well.

So much for being an open specification/standard, especially given the pricing and launch dates have been announced.

zz9 · 13-10-2009, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

Once boxes start shipping, it may be too late. Sky's response sums one of the problems up quite nicely-

Technical specification
2.11. For a set of Proposals positioned as “a standards based open environment for internet connected TV platforms” (as per p.10 of the Executive’s Summary), Sky considers it remarkable that the technical standards remain unspecified (and more remarkable still that the Trust is seeking to reach provisional conclusions in respect of them) and that the means by which they will be developed remain unsettled.

Especially given in another thread, CE manufacturers at a DTG workshop on Canvas are still asking for the specifications as well.

So much for being an open specification/standard, especially given the pricing and launch dates have been announced.

Maybe you don't know that until virtually the last minute before Sky launched they were still debating what technology to use? And that BSB was also dithering on whether to use D-Mac or not?

Both these discussions went on long, long, after the service launch dates were announced. Its what companies do.

Jellied Eel · 13-10-2009, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by zz9

Maybe you don't know that until virtually the last minute before Sky launched they were still debating what technology to use?

Sky's never claimed to be an 'open platform'. If Canvas were to become an open platform, maybe Sky would become more open?

zz9 · 13-10-2009, 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

Sky's never claimed to be an 'open platform'. If Canvas were to become an open platform, maybe Sky would become more open?

Why should the BBC and the other partners develop Canvas in secret? Why should they wait until its 100% developed before announcing it? Surely with an open platform it makes sense to announce it so other partners can join and influence its development?

Just as with the major manufacturers their dislike of an open platform is based on their self interest. They'd rather develop their own proprietary system that they can control, licence out to others for lots of money and keep newcomers to the market out.

Look at the battle between HDDVD and BluRay. VHS vs Betamax. Every manufacturer wants to own the dominant format, and make others pay to use it.

Open source is the last thing they want. But quite possibly the best for the consumer. Any small manufacturer can make a machine that can compete against the big boys on equal terms.

Why is that a bad thing?

u006852 · 13-10-2009, 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

Technical specification
2.11. For a set of Proposals positioned as “a standards based open environment for internet connected TV platforms” (as per p.10 of the Executive’s Summary), Sky considers it remarkable that the technical standards remain unspecified (and more remarkable still that the Trust is seeking to reach provisional conclusions in respect of them) and that the means by which they will be developed remain unsettled.

Especially given in another thread, CE manufacturers at a DTG workshop on Canvas are still asking for the specifications as well.

So much for being an open specification/standard, especially given the pricing and launch dates have been announced.

Oh get a grip.

Sky object as they won't be in direct control of the platform and may not be able to commercially direct things to their advantage.

It's rather obvious that the platform will introduce further competition to Sky.

Don't forget Sony and Panasonic (and probably many other kit manufacturers) want to promote their own platforms.

Simply self interested party shouting foul.

Wouter · 13-10-2009, 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

Sky's never claimed to be an 'open platform'. If Canvas were to become an open platform, maybe Sky would become more open?

Sky has certainly claimed to be an open platform on many occasions, in fact it's one of their license requirements. But of course, Sky isn't an open platform at all...

Why can't Sky create their own version of Canvas, is there anything stopping them from doing that? That's the question that always arises when someone has the audacity to critise Sky and the way they operate their monopoly. I'd like to ask the same with regards to Sky and Cancas.

iain · 13-10-2009, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

No conspiracy, just a not very open system, with the usual suspects in charge of the UI and EPG. One of the more detailed parts of the Trust documentation seemed to me to be the justification for BBC holding the top EPG slots.

But on an open, user friendly system, why shouldn't you be able to make your own 'top 10' list of favourite channels? Or have a 'favourites' menu item on the top level of the UI?

sorry, i thought when we were talking about open, we were talking about it being available for use by anyone, without it being licenceable and proprietary?

you seem to be talking about how customisable the UI is.

Iain

iain · 13-10-2009, 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

Yeh, sure someone may have said that about the risk of Germany and Poland a while back.

seriously?

no, really?

you're comparing the ability or otherwise of creating a favourites list in a tv UI, with Germany invading Poland?

seriously?

Iain

mikw · 13-10-2009, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellied Eel

Yeh, sure someone may have said that about the risk of Germany and Poland a while back.

Surely, even from someone with such an obvious agenda as yourself, you will admit that was a dumbass comment!

Do you really believe that this issue can be equated with the Nazi's starting the second world war?

Have you utterly lost it?

12-10-2009, 10:08	#1
Lawrencetero Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Services: Sky+HD & free SkyBase Broadband & Phone Posts: 2,083	How much has CANVAS cost so far...? Does anyone know how much money the bbc have poured into this project so far? will the system be open to all broadcasters? or just who the bbc select?

12-10-2009, 15:18	#2
Hewjars Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Services: Sky TV & BB Posts: 512	is there an echo in here?

12-10-2009, 15:35	#4
zz9 Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Essex Services: Sky+, Virgin Broadband. Posts: 1,586	Article about Canvas and how it's open and free for any manufacturer to incorporate into their STBs or PVRs, which of course has pissed off the manufacturers because many, Sony especially, love trying to create their own format that they can force everyone to use and charge licensing fees for. (Anyone remember Betamax? ATRAC? MiniDisc? DAT?)

12-10-2009, 15:58	#5
The Phazer Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 6,692	http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcintern...canvas_un.html Phazer

12-10-2009, 16:01	#6
iain Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: UK Services: Telewest, Telewest Blueyonder BB, Freeview Posts: 51,817	call me cynical, but should the answer, whatever it might be, simply be far too much, and an absolutely disgraceful wast of licence fee money? Iain

12-10-2009, 16:07	#7
mossy2103 Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 32,122	This is what I posted in the other, slightly duplicate thread, gleaned from a very simple and straightforward Google search with just a few keywords: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...98&postcount=5

12-10-2009, 18:03	#8
iain Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: UK Services: Telewest, Telewest Blueyonder BB, Freeview Posts: 51,817	£6m? that's more than i'll earn in a lifetime. i'm going to have to eat my words, and concede that it is disgraceful, and does make me kinda Iain

12-10-2009, 18:17	#9
Jellied Eel Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In a jar, on a shelf Posts: 7,120	If it's an open platform, why haven't the full specifications for it been made open yet?

12-10-2009, 18:53	#14
iain Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: UK Services: Telewest, Telewest Blueyonder BB, Freeview Posts: 51,817	so it issome evil, maniacal conspiracy then? cripes! Iain