[BatPie]

The part that undermines his victory is that he got all his wins when all his rivals were in non-competitive cars, something that debatably most other drivers could have done and essentially due to an interpretation of the rules which could have gone either way.

Then when the other teams got their cars up to speed Button was nowhere in the majority of races. Baricchello, Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Raikkonen all kept taking points off eachother making things incredibly easy for button. In the 2nd half of the season (ie the competitive part), i think he ranks about 7th or 8th, even way behind his teammate.

He drove well on Sunday, but its mentioned so much because a good drive from him is a shock and dont forget both Hamilton and Vettel started behind him and ended up in front with considerably better drives than his "amazing" one.

Hes a champion of circumstance imo, hes a good driver too but there are plenty of better ones out there and i dont think youd ever see him at the top on a level playing field. Nice to see a Brit team and driver at the top, but im not a fan of this years championship.

• Admin Edit: This thread is a continuation of Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 4)

[mounty]

oh come on let JB and his fans have their victory


rah rah rah and it's a crying shame!

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Originally Posted by BatPie

The part that undermines his victory is that he got all his wins when all his rivals were in non-competitive cars, something that debatably most other drivers could have done and essentially due to an interpretation of the rules which could have gone either way.

Then when the other teams got their cars up to speed Button was nowhere in the majority of races. Baricchello, Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Raikkonen all kept taking points off eachother making things incredibly easy for button. In the 2nd half of the season (ie the competitive part), i think he ranks about 7th or 8th, even way behind his teammate.

He drove well on Sunday, but its mentioned so much because a good drive from him is a shock and dont forget both Hamilton and Vettel started behind him and ended up in front with considerably better drives than his "amazing" one.

Hes a champion of circumstance imo, hes a good driver too but there are plenty of better ones out there and i dont think youd ever see him at the top on a level playing field. Nice to see a Brit team and driver at the top, but im not a fan of this years championship.

• Admin Edit: This thread is a continuation of Official Formula 1 Thread (Part 4)

They weren't all in uncompetitive cars from the start of the season. McLaren and Ferrari may not have been up to standard from the start, but the Red Bull was competitive from the first race, so Vettel and Webber were in good cars from the start, as of course was Barrichello.

[Red Okktober]

I'm not a huge F1 fan - I tend to watch the start of races then come back near the finish as there doesn't always seem too much going on inbetween, so I have no favourites - but as an impartial observer, I get the impression Button is not really someone you can compare with the great names of the past who have won the championship. It seems a mediocre and lukewarm victory - there is no panache or glamour attached

He seems a nice bloke though - he interviewed well after the race. Good luck to him

[SULLA]

Originally Posted by BatPie

The part that undermines his victory is that he got all his wins when all his rivals were in non-competitive cars, something that debatably most other drivers could have done and essentially due to an interpretation of the rules which could have gone either way.

Then when the other teams got their cars up to speed Button was nowhere in the majority of races. Baricchello, Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Raikkonen all kept taking points off eachother making things incredibly easy for button. In the 2nd half of the season (ie the competitive part), i think he ranks about 7th or 8th, even way behind his teammate.

He drove well on Sunday, but its mentioned so much because a good drive from him is a shock and dont forget both Hamilton and Vettel started behind him and ended up in front with considerably better drives than his "amazing" one.

Hes a champion of circumstance imo, hes a good driver too but there are plenty of better ones out there and i dont think youd ever see him at the top on a level playing field. Nice to see a Brit team and driver at the top, but im not a fan of this years championship.

A good post with realistic views.

I see Button as a journeyman driver who suddenly got lucky for half a dozen races in what, at the time, was a far better car.

I will always see F1 as a competition for cars rather than drivers.

[Robert Romarin]

Taking a more general view, I think sport always will throw up opportunities for very good but not great competitors to win the 'big one'....Kerry Reid, Paul Lawrie, Joe Johnson amongst many other examples.

Irrespective of how deserving or flukey the particular win is generally judged to be, there will always be that question mark IMO...unless and until the second victory.

So for me, the (legitimate) objections being made to Button's worthiness are somewhat moot. He is arguably a more 'opportunist' champion than most others...but he wouldn't be automatically bracketed with the very best anyway...unless he wins the WDC again.

[sherer]

the only reason JB didn't get any wins at the end of the season is the team has less money than the other big teams and so couldn't develop the car as much. Plus they were getting into diminishing returns, by having a car so much better than the other cars they had room to improve and the others caught up.

This is my worry for next year, will they be able to develop the car as much as the others over the winter and still be able to challenge next season

[Ivor Biggun]

Originally Posted by sherer

the only reason JB didn't get any wins at the end of the season is the team has less money than the other big teams and so couldn't develop the car as much. Plus they were getting into diminishing returns, by having a car so much better than the other cars they had room to improve and the others caught up.

This is my worry for next year, will they be able to develop the car as much as the others over the winter and still be able to challenge next season

In theory next years rule changes could favour Brawn. With the cars having to carry the full fuel load from the start and the resultant weight that goes with it, tyre management will become more critical and cars/drivers who are easier on tyre wear may benefit in the early laps of each race. Remember this year low tyre temperatures were a problem for the Brawn at some races.

On the down side its possible we could see a "fuel burning stage" while all the teams burn of weight before any serious racing or risk taking occurs.

[kingjeremy]

I realise they are trying to keep costs down by banning refueling but what do the expect to achieve from a spectacle point of view by doing this?

All most people want is more overtaking, yet a lot of the overtaking we get these days comes when light cars come up behind heavier fueled cars, how is them all having the same fuel on board going to help? Different fuel loads and seeing how they play out is one of the more interesting aspects of a Grand Prix weekend, removing it seems like a backwards step to me, unless i'm totally missing something here about the rule change

[sherer]

there won't be a fuel burning phase as all the teams will ahev enough fuel to finish the race, they won't need to burn off any extra.

By banning refueling this will help to move more action onto the track as with no pit stops you have to pass on the track. When passing on track is the only option you will see more overtaking. Just wish they had banned tyre stops too.

It also adds in the variable that some cars will be better on full tanks and some better on low tanks as opposed to now where the weight doesn't change much and we don't get much variety between the two

[sergio2006]

Originally Posted by kingjeremy

I realise they are trying to keep costs down by banning refueling but what do the expect to achieve from a spectacle point of view by doing this?

All most people want is more overtaking, yet a lot of the overtaking we get these days comes when light cars come up behind heavier fueled cars, how is them all having the same fuel on board going to help? Different fuel loads and seeing how they play out is one of the more interesting aspects of a Grand Prix weekend, removing it seems like a backwards step to me, unless i'm totally missing something here about the rule change

Believe it or not the most exciting part will be pit stops. Whereas now a car will come out of a stop and be slower, next year a car will come out of a pit stop actually faster, because they are getting lighter every lap and will have fresh tyres, this will give them a big advantage over the field who havent yet stopped. It will still come down to pit stop strategy a lot.

[kingjeremy]

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. I can see how by removing it the drivers will have to do it on the track rather than wait for the guy to stop, stick in a couple fast laps and get past that way. On the other hand we have all seen cars behind desperate to get by that simply can't however much they want to, especially on some of the tracks where overtaking is nigh on impossible.

[Ivor Biggun]

Originally Posted by sherer

there won't be a fuel burning phase as all the teams will ahev enough fuel to finish the race, they won't need to burn off any extra.

By banning refueling this will help to move more action onto the track as with no pit stops you have to pass on the track. When passing on track is the only option you will see more overtaking. Just wish they had banned tyre stops too.

It also adds in the variable that some cars will be better on full tanks and some better on low tanks as opposed to now where the weight doesn't change much and we don't get much variety between the two

With enough fuel to finish the race the cars, all cars, will be putting more load through the tyres in the early laps of the race. This may be of benefit to a team like Brawn who this year often struggled to get tyres up to temperature.

However for those that have had the opposite problem there could be a degree of taking it easy until the fuel load comes down to nearer the optimum running weight of this years cars.

With regard to your last paragraph, surely thats an argument that could be used against next years rules. This year, as you say, the weights were similar. Next year they will be as well but we will have lost part of the interest which is the strategy being played out. F1 is dull enough from a racing point of view, take away the potential for change and the interest through the fuel strategies, and it could become even more processional.

After qualifying we will know who is the fastest because of the level playing field of the fuel load so from a racing point of view I can't see much changing during the race.

[Assa2]

The biggest factor that will shake things up next year as far as I can see will be the extra cars on the grid. None of the current drivers have ever raced with more than 20 or 22 cars. In fact I can't remember watching a GP before the old 26 max. was brought in. 28 cars with a range of performances is going to be very tricky and backmarkers are going to have a significant effect on the races I think. Driver who can deal with them effectively like Hamilton & Alonso will gain a big advantage. I'm not sure where JB fist in. He's pulled off some amazing overtaking this season but has also got stuck behind slower cars.

[Psychosis]

Someone earlier mentioned that Button was pretty low down in the list of results for the second half of the season (counting Germany onwards) when the other cars improved and reached approximately the level of the Brawns. This second half was a much, much, much better comparison of driver skill.

The points earned in the second half of the season were:

Hamilton - 40
Raikkonen - 38
Vettel - 35
Barrichello - 31
Webber - 26
Button - 25

To me that is a much better ranking of driver skill. I probably wouldn't argue with Button being 7th best DRIVER this season (adding Alonso above him because he is clearly the better driver). Arguably Massa would have done better than him, as Raikkonen was able to do in his car, so that knocks Button down to 8th best.

It's easy to say "oh, Button earned his wins" - when his was the ONLY car capable of winning and in five out of ix of the races he won, his team mate had mechanical errors that prevented him from winning! When other cars began to reach the same level as his, Button disappeared completely.

When others won (like Kimi and Hamilton in recent years) they've had competition all along. There was no competition for the Brawns at the start. If there had been, the second half of the season which DID have competition for the Brawns shows that he wouldn't have been in the running at all. Duplicating those, it would've been Hamilton and Raikkonen battling around 80 points, Vettel and Rubens within striking distance, and Button 30 points back!

[d'@ve]

Originally Posted by Psychosis

The points earned in the second half of the season were:

Hamilton - 40
Raikkonen - 38
Vettel - 35
Barrichello - 31
Webber - 26
Button - 25

To me that is a much better ranking of driver skill.

Looking at the big 5, over the last three years since Lewis entered the fray, I reckon the points gained so far are as follows:

Hamilton - 256
Räikkönen - 233
Massa - 213*
Alonso - 196
The rest - nowhere
Button - 98.

*If you replace Massa's 2009 points score by Räikkönen's, Massa goes up to 239 and 2nd place but I don't think he could have caught Hamilton even if he wasn't injured.

It would be interesting to see a 3 year rolling championship drivers' trophy, to determine the most consistent top driver. Some years, you might get a rolling winner who'd didn't win the annual drivers' championship over the period, yet who thoroughly deserved the accolade of being a great F1 driver.

[Early Riser]

Just a dumb newbie question, is he allowed to wear the 'No 1' decal on his car in the last race now?

Thanks!

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Originally Posted by Psychosis

Someone earlier mentioned that Button was pretty low down in the list of results for the second half of the season (counting Germany onwards) when the other cars improved and reached approximately the level of the Brawns. This second half was a much, much, much better comparison of driver skill.

The points earned in the second half of the season were:

Hamilton - 40
Raikkonen - 38
Vettel - 35
Barrichello - 31
Webber - 26
Button - 25

To me that is a much better ranking of driver skill. I probably wouldn't argue with Button being 7th best DRIVER this season (adding Alonso above him because he is clearly the better driver). Arguably Massa would have done better than him, as Raikkonen was able to do in his car, so that knocks Button down to 8th best.

It's easy to say "oh, Button earned his wins" - when his was the ONLY car capable of winning and in five out of ix of the races he won, his team mate had mechanical errors that prevented him from winning! When other cars began to reach the same level as his, Button disappeared completely.

When others won (like Kimi and Hamilton in recent years) they've had competition all along. There was no competition for the Brawns at the start. If there had been, the second half of the season which DID have competition for the Brawns shows that he wouldn't have been in the running at all. Duplicating those, it would've been Hamilton and Raikkonen battling around 80 points, Vettel and Rubens within striking distance, and Button 30 points back!

First of all, you ignore that Red Bull had a competitive car from the start of the season. Second, some of Barrichello's mechanical problems were probably down to driver error. One of these problems you count is the anti-stall kicking in on him, which is most likely to be caused by the driver rather than a mechanical fault.

Then you use points to show that Button was only sixth in the second half of the season, then throw in a couple of drivers who scored less but you decide should be above him to put him eighth. I could just as easily say that he is above everyone apart from five drivers, and then say that I think he is better than Barrichello, Webber and Raikkonen, so that puts him up to third best. It's amazing how you can twist things to suit you when you ignore logic isnit it?

Button was driving with a different mentality than the others in the second half of the season. They all had to be aggressive as they were playing catch-up, whilst Button was merely looking to consolidate and not make any costly errors. That skews your table of their points from the second half of the season, and of course doubly skews your doubling those points to give a full season idea.

Instead of putting all of this effort into trying to discredit Button's achievement, why not just a short post which says what you really mean? You don't like him and you're not happy that he won the championship (plus if you can come up with an way of working things that makes Lewis Hamilton look like the best driver this season so much the better)!

[d'@ve]

Originally Posted by Dr. Jan Itor

Button was driving with a different mentality than the others in the second half of the season. They all had to be aggressive as they were playing catch-up, whilst Button was merely looking to consolidate and not make any costly errors.

It's also worth mentioning that once Brawn were fairly confident that they had the championships wrapped up, they may well have switched resources from developing this year's car to developing next year's car, which would tend to let the others catch up then get ahead.

[crake]

Originally Posted by BatPie

He drove well on Sunday, but its mentioned so much because a good drive from him is a shock and dont forget both Hamilton and Vettel started behind him and ended up in front with considerably better drives than his "amazing" one.

The McLaren and especially the Red Bull were faster in Brazil. You're quick to point out when Button has the fastest car, but seem to overlook the fact that the Brawn has been anything but for a good while. And, of course, Hamilton was racing for nothing -- compare and contrast his performance here with that of his previous two Brazilian races!

Originally Posted by BatPie

Hes a champion of circumstance imo

This is a far better description of Hamilton.

[crake]

Originally Posted by d'@ve

It's also worth mentioning that once Brawn were fairly confident that they had the championships wrapped up, they may well have switched resources from developing this year's car to developing next year's car, which would tend to let the others catch up then get ahead.

I'd like to think this, but I fear that this will be their one and only year with a competitive car. Brawn is not the big beast Honda was. I don't think a small team with fairly limited resources can compete with the likes of McLaren and Ferrari for long, without these big rule changes shaking everything up.

[allafix]

Originally Posted by Early Riser

Just a dumb newbie question, is he allowed to wear the 'No 1' decal on his car in the last race now?

Thanks!

No, the new numbers will be allocated next season.

[gomezz]

They may do a special nose cone design for the last race to reflect his champion status as has been done in MotoGP. Are they allowed to do that in F1?

[allafix]

Originally Posted by Psychosis

Someone earlier mentioned that Button was pretty low down in the list of results for the second half of the season (counting Germany onwards) when the other cars improved and reached approximately the level of the Brawns. This second half was a much, much, much better comparison of driver skill.

The points earned in the second half of the season were:

Hamilton - 40
Raikkonen - 38
Vettel - 35
Barrichello - 31
Webber - 26
Button - 25

To me that is a much better ranking of driver skill. I probably wouldn't argue with Button being 7th best DRIVER this season (adding Alonso above him because he is clearly the better driver). Arguably Massa would have done better than him, as Raikkonen was able to do in his car, so that knocks Button down to 8th best.

It's easy to say "oh, Button earned his wins" - when his was the ONLY car capable of winning and in five out of ix of the races he won, his team mate had mechanical errors that prevented him from winning! When other cars began to reach the same level as his, Button disappeared completely.

When others won (like Kimi and Hamilton in recent years) they've had competition all along. There was no competition for the Brawns at the start. If there had been, the second half of the season which DID have competition for the Brawns shows that he wouldn't have been in the running at all. Duplicating those, it would've been Hamilton and Raikkonen battling around 80 points, Vettel and Rubens within striking distance, and Button 30 points back!

In the past we've had entire seasons dominated by one team. Should the champions of those years be ignored? Are you suggesting the first half of this season was just a warm up which shouldn't count?

The fact is Button is a very talented driver. He's one of the smoothest drivers on the grid (I'm referring to his driving technique of course). His problem before this season has been living up to that early promise, and sometimes lacking in motivation. He's been several years without a competitive drive, so that must have sapped his confidence too. In 2009 he found himself with a winning car and rediscovered the desire to win. Brawn effectively switched off developing this years car mid-season, so other teams have caught up and overtaken them in some cases. Does that team decision mean Button is less of a champion?

The World Championship is decided over the whole season. You can't decide afterwards which races count and which don't. It's amazing how some people are determined to find ways to run down drivers they don't like.

[allafix]

@ SULLA,

OK, I missed that you excepted his success in Italy from your comment. But what value does your point have if you have to ignore facts to make it? That is like saying "if you ignore his success he's a failure".