[grahamrudkin]

It was My understanding that on the 4th Nov the BBC 2 analogue service would cease broadcasting on UHF CH 62.

The BBC MUX 1 would cease broadcasting on UHF CH 56 and be replaced with the NEW PSB1 MUX operating at 64QAM - 8k and 100KW power carrying ALL BBC services broadcasting on UHF CH 62.

However additional changes where also made

MUX C ceased broadcasting at UHF CH 60 (CH43 from Winter Hill B) and moved temporarily to UHF CH 56 vacated by BBC MUX 1.

This information was not made available to the public beforehand, although it is unlikely to affect most STB's there are some that need to be re-tuned manually to pick up the new PSB1 MUX such as the HUMAX PVR9200t!

So here are the UHF channel numbers for a manual re-tune from Winter Hill.

CH 62 - PSB1
CH 66 - MUX 2
CH 68 - MUX A
CH 67 - MUX B (optional) only needed for Community Chanel as PSB1 above now broadcasts all BBC services.
CH 56 - MUX C
CH 63 - MUX D or CH 40 from Winter Hill B

Please note that if you do scan CH 67 - MUX B you will have duplicates of some BBC channels in the 800 range.

In my opinion it is not worth doing a scan on CH 67 as I never watch the Community Chanel.

[ArcticFox]

So the channels in the 600 range are the proper channels? Will the 800 range BBC channels dissappear?

If so its completely overloaded my hauppauge dual tuner usb card and just in time for Spooks tonight, thanks a lot freeview.

If i was to get a variable attenuator to dial down the signal wouldnt that affect the rest of the muxes on 10Kw low power that i get sketchy signal at best?

[grahamrudkin]

Originally Posted by ArcticFox

So the channels in the 600 range are the proper channels? Will the 800 range BBC channels dissappear?

If so its completely overloaded my hauppauge dual tuner usb card and just in time for Spooks tonight, thanks a lot freeview.

You should be able to carry out a manual retune on your system! check the settings! you should also be able to delete the duplicate channels however I dont understand what you mean by your first question!

[ArcticFox]

I just did a rescan and it picked up BBC One, Two etc.. on 666000Mhz which has completely overloaded my tv tuners because of the signal strength, but there are duplicate channels on 802000Mhz which are fine on my tuners, will the 802khz ones dissappear anytime soon?

[JohnON]

Most of the Merseyside area now has BBC1 WALES and BBC 2 WALES as their primary stations.

Seems to me that Freeview has shot itself in the foot just before the Christmas rush for Free*** boxes!

John.

[mrdtv]

Originally Posted by JohnON

Most of the Merseyside area now has BBC1 WALES and BBC 2 WALES as their primary stations.

Seems to me that Freeview has shot itself in the foot just before the Christmas rush for Free*** boxes!

John.

Yes, this has been mentioned on BBC local radio phone-ins this morning as well as on the web. You need to do manual tuning or use an attenuator pad in-line to weaken Moel-Y-Parc as it comes before WH, Storeton should have better chances as it comes before MyP in the band. This fixes the problem.

But I agree that DUK, Freeview and DTG have not done a good job in specifying elegant tuning: Merseyside grannies will be learning Welsh!

[Dear Viewer]

Originally Posted by grahamrudkin

It was My understanding that on the 4th Nov the BBC 2 analogue service would cease broadcasting on UHF CH 62.

The BBC MUX 1 would cease broadcasting on UHF CH 56 and be replaced with the NEW PSB1 MUX operating at 64QAM - 8k and 100KW power carrying ALL BBC services broadcasting on UHF CH 62.

However additional changes where also made

MUX C ceased broadcasting at UHF CH 60 (CH43 from Winter Hill B) and moved temporarily to UHF CH 56 vacated by BBC MUX 1.
This information was not made available to the public beforehand, although it is unlikely to affect most STB's there are some that need to be re-tuned manually to pick up the new PSB1 MUX such as the HUMAX PVR9200t!

So here are the UHF channel numbers for a manual re-tune from Winter Hill.

CH 62 - PSB1
CH 66 - MUX 2
CH 68 - MUX A
CH 67 - MUX B (optional) only needed for Community Chanel as PSB1 above now broadcasts all BBC services.
CH 56 - MUX C
CH 63 - MUX D or CH 40 from Winter Hill B

Please note that if you do scan CH 67 - MUX B you will have duplicates of some BBC channels in the 800 range.

In my opinion it is not worth doing a scan on CH 67 as I never watch the Community Chanel.

The intention, I understand, is to drop Winter Hill B as a Freeview transmitter, so I guess the 'temporary' movement is part of that process.

[tin]

Can someone explain how this has changed for people on Merseyside? I've _always_ had the problem of Moel-y-parc coming in before Winter Hill, even though Moel-y-parc is too weak to reliably receive. How come the change for some people?

The change is also an arse, as I had memorised the MUX channels for manual tuning - now I'll have to forget

On a more positive note, the increase in power doesn't seem to have adversely affected the TVs I've tuned so far

[mrdtv]

Originally Posted by tin

Can someone explain how this has changed for people on Merseyside? I've _always_ had the problem of Moel-y-parc coming in before Winter Hill, even though Moel-y-parc is too weak to reliably receive. How come the change for some people?

The change is also an arse, as I had memorised the MUX channels for manual tuning - now I'll have to forget

On a more positive note, the increase in power doesn't seem to have adversely affected the TVs I've tuned so far

The problem arises in autoscan tuning algorithms: before last week MyP was 1kW DTT, now its 20kw DTT (equivalent to analogue 100kW), and on Ch 45 for BBC PSB1 muxes. Winter Hill is Ch 62 and Storeton 28 for BBC PSB 1, so it affects those on WH more than Storeton. Many receivers store the strongest signals or lowest frequencies first, so that's why MyP pops up. With high power DTT it now provides an excellent signal. In the Liverpool area the RF spectrum is very congested witlh signals from WH, MyP, Storeton and The Wrekin all available. So manual tuning is the answer!

[Ray Cathode]

I don't understand why the old Mux 1 frequency is being reused for one month for Mux C. Surely making such an unannounced change will bring yet more confusion. It is still unreported by Digital UK.

[JohnON]

Originally Posted by mrdtv

So manual tuning is the answer!

I understand what you're saying but manual tuning isn't the answer, it's the workaround. Automatic tuning worked properly yesterday, today it doesn't work properly.

John.

[Digifriendly]

Originally Posted by mrdtv

The problem arises in autoscan tuning algorithms: before last week MyP was 1kW DTT, now its 20kw DTT (equivalent to analogue 100kW), and on Ch 45 for BBC PSB1 muxes. Winter Hill is Ch 62 and Storeton 28 for BBC PSB 1, so it affects those on WH more than Storeton. Many receivers store the strongest signals or lowest frequencies first, so that's why MyP pops up. With high power DTT it now provides an excellent signal. In the Liverpool area the RF spectrum is very congested witlh signals from WH, MyP, Storeton and The Wrekin all available. So manual tuning is the answer!

Agree that manual tuning is best solution but how many consumers know about this? The expert person interviewed on 'North West Tonight' was asked about this confusion of channels in 800's and did not mention manual tuning but only spoke about using favourites option to choose your own region.

[Dan Fortesque]

Deleted.

[larkim]

Originally Posted by Digifriendly

Agree that manual tuning is best solution but how many consumers know about this? The expert person interviewed on 'North West Tonight' was asked about this confusion of channels in 800's and did not mention manual tuning but only spoke about using favourites option to choose your own region.

But isn't the real problem that most people don't have the right aerial in the first place? Because so many of us took the convenient option of having wideband aerials installed, we now are exposed to this problem. If we'd had group C/D aerials (for WH) installed, the strength received on the group B MyP would be significantly lower.

And in any event, what were Freeview to do about it? The point of DSO was to remove some frequencies from the spectrum and increase power so that DTT was even more widely available. MyP shouldn't have to run on low power because scousers were duped into buying "digital" (for that, read wideband, cheap) aerials.

The way to have got this "right" in the first place was to specify a Freeview / DTT standard which meant all boxes could be configured to ignore certain muxes via a simple interface (e.g. box displays "I have received acceptable signal strengths from the following transmitters - Winter Hill, Storeton and Moel-y-Parc - which would you like to choose for your main viewing?"), but they didn't, and instead the availability of manual tuning depends on which box or TV you bought.

Matt

[mrdtv]

Originally Posted by larkim

But isn't the real problem that most people don't have the right aerial in the first place? Because so many of us took the convenient option of having wideband aerials installed, we now are exposed to this problem. If we'd had group C/D aerials (for WH) installed, the strength received on the group B MyP would be significantly lower.

And in any event, what were Freeview to do about it? The point of DSO was to remove some frequencies from the spectrum and increase power so that DTT was even more widely available. MyP shouldn't have to run on low power because scousers were duped into buying "digital" (for that, read wideband, cheap) aerials.

The way to have got this "right" in the first place was to specify a Freeview / DTT standard which meant all boxes could be configured to ignore certain muxes via a simple interface (e.g. box displays "I have received acceptable signal strengths from the following transmitters - Winter Hill, Storeton and Moel-y-Parc - which would you like to choose for your main viewing?"), but they didn't, and instead the availability of manual tuning depends on which box or TV you bought.

Matt

Sorry. The now defunct SETPAL boxes did this exactly: they allowed you to toggle between different BBC1's using the L/R key on the remote. I saw this in the Liverpool area. Its such an easy solution with the right software, if you have sufficient signal strength you canuse both otherwise you delete the weaker signals. This problem was anticipated FIVE years ago by that company but DUK, DTG and Ofcom chose to ignore it. Now DSO in the North West is morphing into a trainwreck....

Its incompetence on the part of quangos.

[grahamrudkin]

Originally Posted by ArcticFox

I just did a rescan and it picked up BBC One, Two etc.. on 666000Mhz which has completely overloaded my tv tuners because of the signal strength, but there are duplicate channels on 802000Mhz which are fine on my tuners, will the 802khz ones dissappear anytime soon?

The 802000Mhz ones will be staying and the ones at 666000Mhz will be shut down on 2nd Dec.

[ArcticFox]

Excellent thanks.

[JohnON]

Originally Posted by larkim

But isn't the real problem that most people don't have the right aerial in the first place?

I have the right aerial but, being a bungalow, I also need a mast-head amplifier (still), which doesn't help.

The problem is that Myp's footprint needs drastically trimming to the east. It's virtually on the Wales/England border and covers a huge area of Merseyside and Cheshire.

OfCom and the broadcasters used to go to great pains to avoid channels overlapping on analogue. Seen;ms they don't give a monkey's now.

MyP shouldn't have to run on low power because scousers were duped into buying "digital" (for that, read wideband, cheap) aerials.

As I said, no we weren't The problem is MyP's omni antenna.

The way to have got this "right" in the first place was to specify a Freeview / DTT standard which meant all boxes could be configured to ignore certain muxes via a simple interface (e.g. box displays "I have received acceptable signal strengths from the following transmitters - Winter Hill, Storeton and Moel-y-Parc - which would you like to choose for your main viewing?"), but they didn't, and instead the availability of manual tuning depends on which box or TV you bought.

Matt

Yes, agreed.

The problem with manual tuning is that, for the likes of the Humax boxes, it seems to need a factory default reset first and, if you're not watching it or if you're even remotely techno-phobic, it fires off into an automatic scan.

There's countless number of elderly people who switched to Freeview for one reason only - it's been forced on them. Most of them never venture beyond Channel 5 anyway so asking them to manually tune the box selecting the MUXes of your choice would be like speaking Chinese or suggesting a short holiday on the Moon. Basically, it's a disgrace!

John.

[lstar337]

Originally Posted by mrdtv

Sorry. The now defunct SETPAL boxes did this exactly: they allowed you to toggle between different BBC1's using the L/R key on the remote. I saw this in the Liverpool area. Its such an easy solution with the right software, if you have sufficient signal strength you canuse both otherwise you delete the weaker signals. This problem was anticipated FIVE years ago by that company

What the company that made boxes without the digital tick which all fell apart with the split NIT?

I would rather SETPAL had conformed to standards rather than adding pointless features.

[mrdtv]

Originally Posted by lstar337

What the company that made boxes without the digital tick which all fell apart with the split NIT?

I would rather SETPAL had conformed to standards rather than adding pointless features.

Claptrap on your part!

It had been identified that multiple transmitters and multiple areas would be a major problem at DSO: at least they implemented a solution. They may not have survived to fix the split NIT issue but that is another story which I won't explore here.

Freeview changes: the gift that keeps on giving relentlessly to Sky.

[diablo]

Originally Posted by JohnON

Yes, agreed.

The problem with manual tuning is that, for the likes of the Humax boxes, it seems to need a factory default reset first and, if you're not watching it or if you're even remotely techno-phobic, it fires off into an automatic scan.

There's countless number of elderly people who switched to Freeview for one reason only - it's been forced on them. Most of them never venture beyond Channel 5 anyway so asking them to manually tune the box selecting the MUXes of your choice would be like speaking Chinese or suggesting a short holiday on the Moon. Basically, it's a disgrace!

John.

My Humax 9200 doesn't need a factory reset, just to delete all the existing channels, then manually scan channel 62 and do an automatic scan for the rest.

It is a pain though and not nice for non-techies.

I notice that multiplex 1 is now shown at 100kW on this site. I'd always assumed it was 10Kw - are they upping the power at this time?

[mrdtv]

Originally Posted by JohnON

I have the right aerial but, being a bungalow, I also need a mast-head amplifier (still), which doesn't help.

The problem is that Myp's footprint needs drastically trimming to the east. It's virtually on the Wales/England border and covers a huge area of Merseyside and Cheshire.

OfCom and the broadcasters used to go to great pains to avoid channels overlapping on analogue. Seen;ms they don't give a monkey's now.



As I said, no we weren't The problem is MyP's omni antenna.



Yes, agreed.

The problem with manual tuning is that, for the likes of the Humax boxes, it seems to need a factory default reset first and, if you're not watching it or if you're even remotely techno-phobic, it fires off into an automatic scan.

There's countless number of elderly people who switched to Freeview for one reason only - it's been forced on them. Most of them never venture beyond Channel 5 anyway so asking them to manually tune the box selecting the MUXes of your choice would be like speaking Chinese or suggesting a short holiday on the Moon. Basically, it's a disgrace!

John.

You can't trim MyP's footprint: it can be seen for miles in many parts of the NW. The solution is intelligent tuning software which stores multiple transmitters against each LCN and allows you to toggle between the different transmitters. Then you delete the copies you don't want or change services. Its actually very easy with properly implemented tuning software. This is a problem in the NW because of the RF congestion, it is also a problem in Northern Ireland and will be a problem in SE England as French DSO gets underway. DUK,DTG and Ofcom should have foreseen and planned for this. Their failure to plan for this is a testament to their incompetence.

[pilgrim42]

I think larkin has a slightly inaccurate view on the selectivity of group C/D aerials : mine has a good response from UHF40 to 68 at 22 miles from Winter Hill, and is picking up
Moel Y Parc on the side of the aerial at 40 miles giving a weak but watchable signal and
cluttering the EPG with yet more duplicates that have to be hidden. As more people are being encouraged to get Log periodic aerials to eliminate side-lobe reception, the wideband response of such aerials might cause even more problems as digital Tx's
have their power jacked up. Without Freeview receivers having the option of removing unwanted Mux's in a logical manner, I see much grief on the horizon.....

[mrdtv]

[ I see much grief on the horizon.....[/quote]

This grief is here and now. And so totally avoidable with good system specification and implementation. Proper tuning software would pick out the best local signals and let you delete the weaker brethren leaving the survival of the fittest with the highest C/N and signal strength.

[CheekyTV]

for those manually tuning freeview and freeview PVR's try this from today

Winter Hill (main transmitter)

Granada Switchover Step 1 4 November 2009

Mux1 UHF 62 new high powered Mux

Mux2 UHF 66

MuxB UHF 67

MuxA UHF 68

MuxC UHF 60/43

MuxD UHF 63/40

this will change again on 2nd December 09

(info from digital uk)

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodec...n/granada/main