[ArchieArchivist]

I eagerly tuned in to the once-great ESPN Classic tonight to sample the first in what looked a hugely exciting series: FIFA World Cup Classic Matches.

Tonight's offering was the classic Brazil v. England group match at the epic Mexico 1970 competition featuring the legendary Pele with commentary provided by the iconic Hugh Jo... Jim Proudfoot.

I quickly switched off.

Sorry, but if you're going to show the greatest competition in football and expect to be taken seriously as a quality sports archive broadcaster, you really cannot insult the viewer with Statto-era Eurosport standards.

Without overdoing it, I'm hugely disappointed. Anybody wth any understanding of what makes archive sports broadcasting watchable understands the importance of original commentary. Obviously, ESPN Classic no longer do. At the very least, they should have put the match on without ridiculously dubbed commentary from a man who was quite possibly two at the time of the match.

What was once a marvelous channel is now a shadow of its former self. I doubt it'll ever be as good again.

Archie.

[coopermanyorks]

Turn the sound down and simply watch the game ?

[Homesdale]

Originally Posted by coopermanyorks

Turn the sound down and simply watch the game ?

I agree with you Archie. I felt the same as you. Been looking forward to watching all the game's since it was announced that they were going to be showing these classic matches.

Although i did have a sneeky feeling that they were going to re dub the commentary. They did it for a few of the latter UEFA European Finals.

All the 70's ones they showed had the original BBC & ITV commentary on them, but for them to re dub Jim Proudfoot, and no disrespect to Jim, but he is literally on every other 'live' game for ESPN at the moment, is litterally taking the p***.

I know for a fact that the original I think its disgusting that ESPN have made a big thing about showing all of these 'Classic World Cup' games then not show them with the original commentary.

I wouldn't mind, but there are both BBC (David Coleman & Don Revie) & ITV (Hugh Johns & Billy Wright ) versions are around in the archives.

So it will be interesting to see if we see Jim do the 1974 game next!!!

[polantic]

Phony commentaries are bad enough on recent games but when they start being dubbed onto classic matches it's beyond the pale.

It's not just on ESPN Classic that this is happening, it's becoming more commonplace on football DVDs.

If you fancy a laugh try listening, as I did, to Tony Gubba commentating on the 1956 FA Cup Final in a pseudo Ken Wolstenholme accent. Or better still, don't.

I seriously wonder how it can be more expensive to pay a royalty for the original commentary compared to the cost of employing someone to do a new one? Or perhaps the original broadcaster don't want to make it available?

[Homesdale]

Originally Posted by polantic

Phony commentaries are bad enough on recent games but when they start being dubbed onto classic matches it's beyond the pale.

It's not just on ESPN Classic that this is happening, it's becoming more commonplace on football DVDs.

If you fancy a laugh try listening, as I did, to Tony Gubba commentating on the 1956 FA Cup Final in a pseudo Ken Wolstenholme accent. Or better still, don't.

I seriously wonder how it can be more expensive to pay a royalty for the original commentary compared to the cost of employing someone to do a new one? Or perhaps the original broadcaster don't want to make it available?

I suppose it depends really where ESPN have bought the rights from. I think they must of got them direct from FIFA, which means they get the game without commentary.

I remember in the past Sky Sports had a programme called 'World Cup Classics', for which they used the ITV commentators, but i expect them to have got the games direct from the ITV archives and not FIFA.

So i think this will be the norm with ESPN, and we are lumbered with the dub commentaries!!

[polantic]

Originally Posted by Homesdale

I suppose it depends really where ESPN have bought the rights from. I think they must of got them direct from FIFA, which means they get the game without commentary.

I remember in the past Sky Sports had a programme called 'World Cup Classics', for which they used the ITV commentators, but i expect them to have got the games direct from the ITV archives and not FIFA.

So i think this will be the norm with ESPN, and we are lumbered with the dub commentaries!!

Ahh, if they're buying the footage direct from FIFA then I guess it makes a little more sense.

[IC89]

Originally Posted by polantic

Ahh, if they're buying the footage direct from FIFA then I guess it makes a little more sense.

Though it does make sense, it does not excuse ESPN for a horrific decision to dub commentary on classic games.

What next, Proudfoot goes on and does the 66 world cup final.

For me, don't know how many would agree, but for me, if I was going to watch the game which had been bough directly from FIFA, just don't provide commentary.

No commentary>>>>>modern commentator in a studio dubbing

Let us enjoy the crowd noise and the atmosphere of the day, it's much more watchable

[suffolkblue]

when espn said that they were going to be showing these classic games i said on another thread what a load of rubbish it would be and not many agreed with me they all said it will be good to watch the old archives.I then said it was obvious they wont use the old telephone line style commentry as its deemed too old and yep i was right they have it dubbed its rubbish nuf said realy.

[tiny_tim]

Agree with everything that's been said, it's pathetic.

The problem with such a blatently dubbed commentary on an old game is that, as a viewer, you know that the commentator knows what's coming up and yet is trying to sound like it's all spontaneous. Inevitably this takes away from the actual game. It's insulting to the viewer.

Sadly, running footage with no commentary is a bit of a non-starter for a broadcaster. Viewers expect to be guided through the action. So getting hold of the original commentary is a must. On classic English league matches, ESPN proudly proclaim on their graphic at the start "Original Commentary By..." so they obviously appreciate how important this is. Either get the original commentary or don't bother showing the match.

[IC89]

Originally Posted by tiny_tim

Agree with everything that's been said, it's pathetic.

The problem with such a blatently dubbed commentary on an old game is that, as a viewer, you know that the commentator knows what's coming up and yet is trying to sound like it's all spontaneous. Inevitably this takes away from the actual game. It's insulting to the viewer.

Sadly, running footage with no commentary is a bit of a non-starter for a broadcaster. Viewers expect to be guided through the action. So getting hold of the original commentary is a must. On classic English league matches, ESPN proudly proclaim on their graphic at the start "Original Commentary By..." so they obviously appreciate how important this is. Either get the original commentary or don't bother showing the match.

You're right, of course, I am dreaming.

The only reason I use that as an example is because on my football clubs site, when they showed extended highlights they did so without any commentary, and it was brilliant.

Now, I like commentators, but there are times when one is utterly needless if you can't get one. So no point in wasting time getting a commentator for some extended highlights of a football club.

But for me, there is no need to insult the viewer by getting a commentator to dub a game that is 39 years old either. Unless you've never, ever seen it before, or are a complete football philistine, then you will always feel crap.

I loathe all commentary when it's recorded after the game has taken place, loathe it to the extreme.

[Alfie2008]

ESPN have showed England matches from Euro 1996, 2000 & 2004 with original commentary, so why can't they do it with matches from the World Cup? Couldn't they use the original BBC/ITV footage & original commentary instead?

Will ESPN be showing any cricket over the next few weeks. I presume they buy the rights from the BBC/C4, so they don't need to add dubbed commentary.

[Homesdale]

Originally Posted by Alfie2008

ESPN have showed England matches from Euro 1996, 2000 & 2004 with original commentary, so why can't they do it with matches from the World Cup? Couldn't they use the original BBC/ITV footage & original commentary instead?

Will ESPN be showing any cricket over the next few weeks. I presume they buy the rights from the BBC/C4, so they don't need to add dubbed commentary.

As i posted earlier. I think ESPN have bought the games direct from FIFA, and not the BBC or ITV, so the games wont have any commentary on.

Hence ESPN adding their own!!

[ArchieArchivist]

As a football nut and a lover of archive football, I honestly feel that ESPN would be better off not broadcasting matches without original commentary. This kind of shoddy rubbish damages the brand name and alienates people like me - surely the demographic that the channel wants to target.

In the absence of original commentary, show the game crowd-noise only. We don't all need to be spoon-fed modern context-bereft inanity. Otherwise, spend your money on archive material that does have orginal commentary.

Jim Proudfoot, a commentator I've a lot of time for, sounds ridiculous pretending to be in Guadalajara in 1970. How is a knowledgeable football fan not to feel insulted by this? At the very least, it destroys the authenticity of the experience listening to Jim, late-30s, emoting on a match played 40 years ago. I can't say it'll do much for Jim's credibility either. Angus Loughran springs to mind...

It's not the first time the World Cup has been treated like this. Even the World Cup Classics shown on Sky Sports Gold in the 1990s had some dubbed commentaries. I recall John Helm - surely he'll pop up again as part of ESPN's dubbed atrocities - pretending to have been in Gelsenkirchen for Holland v. Argentina in 1974 (when Hugh Johns was the ITV commentator). That series did at least have some original commentaries, however, which is probably much more than we can now expect from ESPN.

It's really a huge pity given that they intend to show up to 150 of these archive games.

By the way, to those who say that this has been happening for years on football DVDs - I completely agree. However, one of the key reasons why ESPN Classic was so loved was because it did not pull this stunt on anything like a regular basis. Now, it seems to have lost that advantage and will inevitably lose a lot of goodwill and, dare I say, viewership as a consequence.

Archie.

[Homesdale]

Does anyone know an email address where we can complain about this and get some answers and let them know that the public aren't happy?

[IC89]

youcansendusanemailbutwewontlisten@espn.com

[yvonne]

Fom what I understand ESPN have received video with no commentary. It is generic world cup coverage..there are hundreds of languages in the world so FIFA provide raw footage.....what are ESPN to do?

[The Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Homesdale

Does anyone know an email address where we can complain about this and get some answers and let them know that the public aren't happy?

Try this
http://www.espn.co.uk/more/feedback/

[ArchieArchivist]

Originally Posted by yvonne

Fom what I understand ESPN have received video with no commentary. It is generic world cup coverage..there are hundreds of languages in the world so FIFA provide raw footage.....what are ESPN to do?

One of two things:

1) A deal with the BBC or ITV to source the original commentary for each game.
2) Broadcast the matches without any commentary.

It really isn't rocket science. They had no problem sourcing original BBC/ITV commentary for almost every European Championship classic they showed in 2008.

ESPN claims to be a premium service of top-class broadcasting quality. Anybody with a modicum of understanding of what it is that makes classic sport enthralling years after you know the outcome knows that original commentary is central to the experience. The fact that ESPN have gone ahead with this old rubbish suggests that they've lost that insight and the channel is headed downhill fast.

Let's face it, if they can't get the archive broadcasts of the World Cup right, there's not much point in it anymore for football fans

Archie.

[The Naitch]

Originally Posted by ArchieArchivist

It really isn't rocket science. They had no problem sourcing original BBC/ITV commentary for almost every European Championship classic they showed in 2008.

They've even started to dub over them as well - Jim Proudfoot was doing Denmark vs Germany from Euro 92 the other day.

[uk_xtreme]

Their rights to BBC commentary expired recently IIRC.

[ArchieArchivist]

Originally Posted by The Naitch

They've even started to dub over them as well - Jim Proudfoot was doing Denmark vs Germany from Euro 92 the other day.

Thank God for DVD recorders.

Archie.

[Alfie2008]

Originally Posted by uk_xtreme

Their rights to BBC commentary expired recently IIRC.

Is that why they don't show test cricket highlights anymore?

[ArchieArchivist]

Out of a morbid sense of curiosity, I just had a brief listen to Jim Proudfoot's goal call during the aforementioned 1970 match before deleting the recording unwatched from Sky +.

I was embarrassed for him.

Archie.

[Homesdale]

Originally Posted by ArchieArchivist

Out of a morbid sense of curiosity, I just had a brief listen to Jim Proudfoot's goal call during the aforementioned 1970 match before deleting the recording unwatched from Sky +.

I was embarrassed for him.

Archie.

My mum & dad popped around earlier and i put the Brazil v England game on to show my dad as he is a Bobby Moore nut.

Anyway he told me to turn it off as he said the commentary sounded so false like it had been put on as an extra after the game.

M y mum said he sounded awful. I hadn't said anything about it before, it started.

So for them to say something, means it must of sounded c**p, as they wouldn't know Jim Proufoot from Barry Davies!!

[ArchieArchivist]

It beggars belief, Homesdale, it really does. Despite my disappointment and frustration, I felt sorry for poor Proudfoot. It's the football commentating equivalent of somebody putting on a Frank Sinatra CD only to find John and Edward crooning over the backing band.

Clutching at straws here, but I wonder if ESPN still have plans to do a deal with the BBC or ITV for the bulk of these broadcasts. Let's face it, they probably won't start to show these games in bulk until the new year at the earliest. Given that they've bought 150 of them, they could quite easily have shown one a night if they wanted to make a splash. They've kept most of this pretty quiet - which given the highly-prized nature of the material is surprising. For the Euromania games in 2008, they even redesigned their web site as part of the advertising campaign for the 20-odd matches they broadcast.

They are either completely clueless and have really misjudged their audience (yes, we're picky fanatics, I admit), or they still hope to do a deal with an original broadcaster for commentary before really going to town on the advertising/broadcasting. We can but hope it's the latter.

Archie.