BBC's "The Trap" (The Power of Nightmares guy) - TV Programmes

Inspiration · 05-03-2007, 21:03

The Trap –
What Happened To Our Dream Of Freedom?

Quote:

Individual freedom is the dream of our age. It's what our leaders promise to give us, it defines how we think of ourselves and, repeatedly, we have gone to war to impose freedom around the world. But if you step back and look at what freedom actually means for us today, it's a strange and limited kind of freedom.

Politicians promised to liberate us from the old dead hand of bureaucracy, but they have created an evermore controlling system of social management, driven by targets and numbers. Governments committed to freedom of choice have presided over a rise in inequality and a dramatic collapse in social mobility. And abroad, in Iraq and Afghanistan, the attempt to enforce freedom has led to bloody mayhem and the rise of an authoritarian anti-democratic Islamism. This, in turn, has helped inspire terrorist attacks in Britain. In response, the Government has dismantled long-standing laws designed to protect our freedom.

The Trap is a series of three films by Bafta-winning producer Adam Curtis that explains the origins of our contemporary, narrow idea of freedom.

This is the same guy who brought us "The Power of Nightmares". The advert on BBC 1 seems to indicate this is a show that follows a similar technique.. lots of visuals and I'll certainly be tuning in.

I just wish I'd noted down the day/time!!

ronant · 05-03-2007, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspiration

I just wish I'd noted down the day/time!!

Sunday 9pm BBC2

ATFBKP · 05-03-2007, 23:23

"Individual freedom is the dream of our age. It's what our leaders promise to give us..."

I don't remember nu labour ever promising anything like that... they're a party of control freaks and worse.

Inspiration · 11-03-2007, 22:17

Did anyone watch? The interview with John Nash was most unexpected... as was finding out an ex pentagon/vietnam numbers guy was brought in to fix the NHS!

thecreepingmess · 11-03-2007, 22:24

Can someone tell me where the synth music used occasionally in the programme is from? It's driving me mad!

I'm sure it's some Italian zombie film (or maybe a John Carpenter film), but which one?

Nailz · 11-03-2007, 22:30

Is this repeated ?

ember1 · 11-03-2007, 22:38

You get the feeling that Curtis is a closet statist just itching to attack Thatcher's policies on reducing the role of bureaucrats.

CaptainSensible · 11-03-2007, 22:57

I tried following this, but all I got was something along the lines of "society is atomized and it's all the fault of X etc." - I might watch it again (if I can), but I'm not sure if I can be bothered.

Trojan_Jockey · 11-03-2007, 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ember1

You get the feeling that Curtis is a closet statist just itching to attack Thatcher's policies on reducing the role of bureaucrats.

It was an interesting programme, but as he started by explaining how State control of society had failed in the Soviet Union, and how state domination of economic and social structures was failing in 1970's, he has kind of ruined the argument that state control provides the alternative route to freedom. Maybe there is no alternative or maybe Curtis just likes to preach the idea that everything we believe in is all a big lie and we are all stupid, apart from Curtis of course.

11-03-2007, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trojan_Jockey

It was an interesting programme, but as he started by explaining how State control of society had failed in the Soviet Union, and how state domination of economic and social structures was failing in 1970's, he has kind of ruined the argument that state control provides the alternative route to freedom. Maybe there is no alternative or maybe Curtis just likes to preach the idea that everything we believe in is all a big lie and we are all stupid, apart from Curtis of course.

Is that what he was arguing?

Trojan_Jockey · 11-03-2007, 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socha

Is that what he was arguing?

We don't really know. I guess he will get to his argument in the last couple of episodes. I don't really see what his alternative is going to be though.

11-03-2007, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspiration

Did anyone watch? The interview with John Nash was most unexpected... as was finding out an ex pentagon/vietnam numbers guy was brought in to fix the NHS!

I watched it and thought it to be very interesting. Imagine game-theory being used to organise society. Did anyone know?

tcat · 11-03-2007, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trojan_Jockey

We don't really know. I guess he will get to his argument in the last couple of episodes. I don't really see what his alternative is going to be though.

I think he might have made these three films just for you Trojan

Trojan_Jockey · 11-03-2007, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat

I think he might have made these three films just for you Trojan

That's very kind of him.

The power of nightmares was interesting too, but it would be nice to introduce some psychology into the frame. How do people reason? What motivates people? Can behaviour really be controlled?

I suppose it will boil down to Curtis' theory that we are all taken in by these big controlling forces and aren't free at all, well except for Curtis, and I guess the people he has round to dinner too.

tcat · 11-03-2007, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trojan_Jockey

That's very kind of him.

The power of nightmares was interesting too, but it would be nice to introduce some psychology into the frame. How do people reason? What motivates people? Can behaviour really be controlled?

Isn't he going to argue that we have been controlling our own behaviour and restricting our own freedom in an effort to conform with what we think is 'normal'? He certainly said as much several times in tonight's programme.

Lilitu · 11-03-2007, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecreepingmess

Can someone tell me where the synth music used occasionally in the programme is from? It's driving me mad!

I'm sure it's some Italian zombie film (or maybe a John Carpenter film), but which one?

Was it 'Assault on Precinct 13'?

For me, I wish Curtis had pronounced that R D Laing's beliefs about families and schizophrenia have now been well and truly debunked. Laing caused untold stress and distress to families, particularly mothers (having established that the mother's role was often the couse of schizophrenia in their offspring). His ideas are outmoded, outdated and more importantly, untrue.

Also, the US's psychiatric community have always had different criteria in 'diagnosing' schizophrenia in people.

Still, the programme was really interesting, although I found the constantly changing music and visual imagery quite offputting at times.

eddie · 11-03-2007, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecreepingmess

Can someone tell me where the synth music used occasionally in the programme is from? It's driving me mad!

I'm sure it's some Italian zombie film (or maybe a John Carpenter film), but which one?

A Zombie film would make sense given the content (individuals driven by selfish motivations etc etc. . .) and it has got me thinking which one it could be from. I have definitely heard it before (I thought it sounded a bit like Being Boiled by Human League at one point!)

Trojan_Jockey · 11-03-2007, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat

Isn't he going to argue that we have been controlling our own behaviour and restricting our own freedom in an effort to conform with what we think is 'normal'? He certainly said as much several times in tonight's programme.

Yes, but every society has a definition of normal which its members try to remain within. Even what we might class as "primitive" societies still have their behavioural norms. It is true that we no longer have someone preaching to us what normal is, instead we define it from what we think is normal. If he is saying we are no freer than we were before then he has a point, but that isn't saying anything new.

Somehow I got the idea that future episodes will be telling us that if we continue to follow this sort of thinking will end up in disaster. Remember, the man who brought you the power of nightmares knows very well how to use the medium effectively to promote his own!

Schnorbitz · 11-03-2007, 23:56

There was lots of music from North By Northwest, and I think I noticed Starman too.

I found it full of astonishing ideas, that mathematics and game theory collided with psychology and economics to produce... well, what we've got now.

I'd never thought of applying game theory to Yes Minister before, but it really fits (and also with a lot of episodes of Frasier, now I come to think of it) - finding the least worst outcome that's acceptable to both people.

11-03-2007, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trojan_Jockey

[...], but it would be nice to introduce some psychology into the frame. How do people reason? What motivates people? Can behaviour really be controlled?

I think that's exactly what he has been doing.

Alrightmate · 11-03-2007, 23:58

I watched that documentary earlier on and thought it was excellent.
Best documentary I've seen in a while and that kept my interest levels up.

I was thinking at the time of watching that it interested me as much as 'The Power of Nightmares' did but I didn't realise it was the same person who made it.

Now I do, so it's no surprise that it drew me in and kept me there.

Alrightmate · 12-03-2007, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecreepingmess

Can someone tell me where the synth music used occasionally in the programme is from? It's driving me mad!

I'm sure it's some Italian zombie film (or maybe a John Carpenter film), but which one?

I'm glad that somebody else noticed that. Great music.

It's the theme from 'Assault on Precinct 13'.

John Carpenter wrote some great music for some of his other films as well.

Alrightmate · 12-03-2007, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socha

Is that what he was arguing?

Well not from what I saw.
From what I watched I didn't see the maker say that he was arguing that state control was the alternative to freedom at all.

How I saw it the documentary just explored ways of how the state and other power systems try to pre-empt and second guess people in the population.
It's only part 1 and so far it hasn't really touched that much onto the subject of freedom.
At the moment in the first part it's just gone into approaches used by power bases that try to predict and analyse human behaviour based on systems analysis techniques.

Inspiration · 12-03-2007, 00:14

I wasn't as impressed with the music or editing as I was with "The Power of Nightmares". It would be very interesting to see him put this one together with The Power of Nightmares.. I'm hoping that they both reach the same conclusions and I very much hope he doesn't contradict himself.

For me it was worth tuning in just to see John Nash, being a huge fan of "A Beautiful Mind".

thecreepingmess · 12-03-2007, 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alrightmate

I'm glad that somebody else noticed that. Great music.

It's the theme from 'Assault on Precint 13'.

John Carpenter wrote some great music for some of his other films as well.

Great thanks. I thought it was either Assault on Precinct 13 or Zombie Flesh Eaters.

Now I can sleep easy.

11-03-2007, 22:24	#5
thecreepingmess Inactive Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Services: Freeview, Be, X-Box 360, Wii & Nintendo DS Posts: 2,907	Can someone tell me where the synth music used occasionally in the programme is from? It's driving me mad! I'm sure it's some Italian zombie film (or maybe a John Carpenter film), but which one? Last edited by thecreepingmess : 11-03-2007 at 22:26.

05-03-2007, 23:23	#3
ATFBKP Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: south london Services: freeview: 2 x dhd4000, MBP + eyeTV Posts: 198	"Individual freedom is the dream of our age. It's what our leaders promise to give us..." I don't remember nu labour ever promising anything like that... they're a party of control freaks and worse.

11-03-2007, 22:17	#4
Inspiration Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19,616	Did anyone watch? The interview with John Nash was most unexpected... as was finding out an ex pentagon/vietnam numbers guy was brought in to fix the NHS!

11-03-2007, 22:30	#6
Nailz Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,593	Is this repeated ?

11-03-2007, 22:38	#7
ember1 Banned User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,689	You get the feeling that Curtis is a closet statist just itching to attack Thatcher's policies on reducing the role of bureaucrats.

11-03-2007, 22:57	#8
CaptainSensible Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,442 Blog Entries: 1	I tried following this, but all I got was something along the lines of "society is atomized and it's all the fault of X etc." - I might watch it again (if I can), but I'm not sure if I can be bothered.

11-03-2007, 23:56	#19
Schnorbitz Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: South Croydon. The nice bit. Posts: 1,093	There was lots of music from North By Northwest, and I think I noticed Starman too. I found it full of astonishing ideas, that mathematics and game theory collided with psychology and economics to produce... well, what we've got now. I'd never thought of applying game theory to Yes Minister before, but it really fits (and also with a lot of episodes of Frasier, now I come to think of it) - finding the least worst outcome that's acceptable to both people.

11-03-2007, 23:58	#21
Alrightmate Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Services: Fingers crossed for RATM to snatch Christmas number one song Posts: 33,528	I watched that documentary earlier on and thought it was excellent. Best documentary I've seen in a while and that kept my interest levels up. I was thinking at the time of watching that it interested me as much as 'The Power of Nightmares' did but I didn't realise it was the same person who made it. Now I do, so it's no surprise that it drew me in and kept me there.

12-03-2007, 00:14	#24
Inspiration Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19,616	I wasn't as impressed with the music or editing as I was with "The Power of Nightmares". It would be very interesting to see him put this one together with The Power of Nightmares.. I'm hoping that they both reach the same conclusions and I very much hope he doesn't contradict himself. For me it was worth tuning in just to see John Nash, being a huge fan of "A Beautiful Mind".