[Nick_G]

I'm wondering how exactly this is going to work. Are the bit-rates going to be dropped even further on the MP2 streams to accomodate the new AAC+ stations?

There are already too many stations for the allocated bits as it is, so surely trying to squeeze in AAC+ stations won't help.

Or are Ofcom going to release more spectrum in Band III?

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

[norderney]

As far as I am aware there are no plans to broadcast radio using DAB+ in Uk. Digital 1 have made it clear they will continue using MP2, and the second DAB mux which is being advertised now specifically states all radio stations MUST use MP2.

[hanssolo]

France has some DAB+ tests which could turn into full time DAB+ along with other countries where DAB has not been used much.
There is a small amount of data capacity on UK DAB muxes which has been used for DAB+ tests, but full DAB+ transmissions in UK are a maybe few years away when the majority of sets will be DAB+ compatable. There might be UK DAB MP2 stations for a long time.

If ch4 get the 2nd national commercial mux they will try AAC coded (as used in DAB+) radio podcasts downloaded to special DAB+ compatable sets in 2008, which might be the nearest the UK might get to DAB+.
From the ch4 radio bid on the Ofcom website

These Podcast Services will be able to take advantage of the increasingly converged devices that are currently becoming available, and will become a mainstream part of the device ecosystem during the term of the licence. These devices will have (1) integrated broadcast capable receivers in addition to other networking capability, (2) large amounts of storage, (3) programmable intelligence, and (4) on some devices, colour screens.
13.53 4 Digital Group expects that these devices will be available in UK stores during 2008, in time for the launch of broadcast services on the multiplex.
13.54 All audio podcasts on the 4 Digital Group multiplex will be delivered using the DAB+ format.

[mjk79]

Originally Posted by Nick_G

Are the bit-rates going to be dropped even further on the MP2 streams to accomodate the new AAC+ stations?

There are already too many stations for the allocated bits as it is, so surely trying to squeeze in AAC+ stations won't help.

Surely since almost all the DAB receivers in use are of the kitchen/portable radio variety it wouldn't actually make much difference at all to drop 128kbit/s JS to 80kbit/s mono to free up some bandwidth for other services?

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by mjk79

Surely since almost all the DAB receivers in use are of the kitchen/portable radio variety it wouldn't actually make much difference at all to drop 128kbit/s JS to 80kbit/s mono to free up some bandwidth for other services?

There are still a lot of stereo DAB sets, so this is not an option.

[Mr. X]

I'd love it to happen, just to see the look on the face of the DAB Sounds Worse Than FM bloke... !

[mjk79]

Originally Posted by hanssolo

There are still a lot of stereo DAB sets, so this is not an option.

How many? Is there a breakdown of sales (and use) of different types of set?

I'd be very surprised if there are any significant numbers of stereo receivers actually in-use, from the evidence I've seen the vast majority of DAB listeners are using mono portable radios, with a small number of in-car and home hi-fi and portable DAB being frankly a total write-off in most cases due to terrible mobile reception.

Furthermore if it "isn't an option" then why are so many stations already currently broadcasting in mono?

[MikeBr]

The sections that I found particularly interesting were 4 Digital's talks with manufacturers and retailers on DAB+ capable sets and that they would be prepared to subsidise them:

The kitchen radio is the main set for one third of all DAB listeners and it accounts for three quarters of those peoples’ listening hours.

13.70 4 Digital Group intends to ensure that kitchen radios continue to play an important part in the device ecosystem. It is our expectation that kitchen radios will continue
to appeal to a large segment of the consumer market. Whilst additional features, such as DAB+ (see below), will have an impact on the bill of materials for most devices, over the long run these costs will substantially reduce as aacPlus modules are in a far larger range of consumer electronic devices. The same model will apply
to colour screens, storage and additional networking technologies such as Wi-Fi.

13.71 We expect that within the next 24 months all new kitchen radios on the market will be natively capable or upgradeable to DAB+ audio coding. This will include the
cheapest receivers in the marketplace. From our discussions, 4 Digital Group has had confirmation from manufacturers and retailers that they are prepared to absorb the additional cost of DAB+ on the understanding that the cost will be offset by the increase in receiver sales. And what will drive this increase in sales is the combination
of attractive new services and significant marketing to support the new technology.

13.72 4 Digital Group has signed agreements with leading manufacturers to work in close co-operation to develop this market segment. This could see the development
of combination Wi-Fi/DAB products which would neatly align with 4 Digital Group’s plans for podcasting and interactivity. In addition, 4 Digital Group will work with these manufacturers on other initiatives such as product updates, the development of innovative new features using colour screens and memory on DAB radios,
and environmentally friendly initiatives for receivers.

More discussion on this is in their Confidential Annex on DAB+.

The DRDB policy statement on DAB+ is linked in the article below but their timescale assumes that "dual standard products will be significantly more expensive than existing sets."

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/ar...-in-the-UK.php

If 4 Digital wins the bid for Digital 2 and receivers are subsidised it alters the timescale in the DRDB document.

[Nick_G]

I shall certainly be buying a DAB+ capable hi-fi tuner when one becomes available. I'd like to be able to listen to the likes of BBC 7 and the BBC Asian Network in stereo. (I know you can get them on Freeview but I'd rather not have to turn on the TV to listen to the radio.)

The sooner this happens, the better, as far as I'm concerned. I just hope that the bit rates on the current MP2 services aren't dropped even further. I think that would upset a lot of listeners.

The only way around this problem I can see is by allocating more spectrum somewhere.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

[AuralJunkie]

Originally Posted by mjk79

Surely since almost all the DAB receivers in use are of the kitchen/portable radio variety it wouldn't actually make much difference at all to drop 128kbit/s JS to 80kbit/s mono to free up some bandwidth for other services?

On that basis we might as well downgrade FM as well seeing that most listen to FM on trannies, bad sounding CD/radio/cassettes or car radios - and anyone who is satisfied with the FM quality of Classic FM would not notice.

I listen to DAB and FM on a tranny, walkman, decent car radio, and hi-fi tuner so no thanks. Any upgrade should be gradual and based on new channels being released and parrellel development.

[mjk79]

Originally Posted by AuralJunkie

On that basis we might as well downgrade FM as well seeing that most listen to FM on trannies, bad sounding CD/radio/cassettes or car radios - and anyone who is satisfied with the FM quality of Classic FM would not notice.

But there is no real point in downgrading the audio quality on VHF FM broadcasts since doing so doesn't release any spectrum for new stations, nor has any significant cost for the broadcaster broadcasting in stereo.

DAB on the otherhand is quite different; it already hardly provides any 'hi fidelity' audio, already has many stations broadcasting in mono only and does have a more significant cost for the broadcaster due to the way bandwidth can be re-allocated to other services.

I listen to DAB and FM on a tranny, walkman, decent car radio, and hi-fi tuner so no thanks.

Sure, but you're evidently in the minority if you're listening on anything more than a kitchen radio and arguably you stand more to gain in the future if a different system is adopted than you ever will do if you resist change and retain the existing system.

Any upgrade should be gradual and based on new channels being released and parrellel development.

Absolutely, however the risk here is that the way people consume audio is moving more and more quickly and is increasingly driven by technology, not gradually meandering over a decade or so until more spectrum may (or may not) be auctioned off to new T-DAB services.

[mjk79]

Originally Posted by Nick_G

I just hope that the bit rates on the current MP2 services aren't dropped even further.

A mono 80kbit/s broadcast shouldn't sound any worse though than using 128kbit/s JS.

It just won't be in stereo, although I suppose it's quite arguable how much of the original stereo image is retained once the sound has been mangled and processed that low in the first place.

[Nick_G]

More info on Channel 4's bid and a hypothetical BBC mux using DAB+:

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/ar...-multiplex.php

That will be fantastic if the BBC mux does end up like that.

I read somewhere that the winner of the bid will start broadcasting in 2008, so if 4 Digital win, we could see the first proper DAB+ broadcasts in a year.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by Nick_G

I read somewhere that the winner of the bid will start broadcasting in 2008, so if 4 Digital win, we could see the first proper DAB+ broadcasts in a year.

Sy the moment 4 Digital's bid only has MP2 DAB stations, only the podcast service downloads to sets memory cards will be AAC as used in DAB+, but this is not proper DAB+ streams.

[kev]

Originally Posted by mjk79

A mono 80kbit/s broadcast shouldn't sound any worse though than using 128kbit/s JS.

It just won't be in stereo, although I suppose it's quite arguable how much of the original stereo image is retained once the sound has been mangled and processed that low in the first place.

Explain then why Capital Life now sounds awful on "walkman" style radios - My listening hours to that station went from around 7 hours a day to 0 minutes per day when it went mono because of that. The lack of stereo is highly noticeable.

Originally Posted by mjk79

With a small number of in-car and home hi-fi and portable DAB being frankly a total write-off in most cases due to terrible mobile reception.

Ignoring for one minute the BBC who desperately need to improve their network coverage (something DAB+ won't help with), I have found in car DAB coverage to be excellent, and hand held to be generally better than FM (except for 2 stations I don't listen to anyway).

[kev]

Originally Posted by Nick_G

I read somewhere that the winner of the bid will start broadcasting in 2008, so if 4 Digital win, we could see the first proper DAB+ broadcasts in a year.

The licence document specifically mentions that any AAC+ services will be classed as DATA and therefore can accommodate a maximum of 30% of the multiplex (less once DLS, DAB Slideshow, and the EPG have been accommodated). Audio services MUST be MP2.

[hanssolo]

Originally Posted by kev

The licence document specifically mentions that any AAC+ services will be classed as DATA and therefore can accommodate a maximum of 30% of the multiplex (less once DLS, DAB Slideshow, and the EPG have been accommodated). Audio services MUST be MP2.

I am still trying to work out how the AAC DAB podcasting will work.
Looks like there will be a 80k podcast channel in the data 30% part of the multiplex. The various podcasts from various stations: Gaydar, Club Asia, NME, IMG, Penguin, Financial Times, Prince's Trust, Media Trust and Colourful will be feed down this, there will have to be special software in the new DAB sets which display podcasts available, so the set owner can say if they want the podcast which will be downloaded to the sets memory, so that it can be heard "on demand" when selected on a list shown on the sets display. The sets will be able to download the podcast automatically for the next day in a simular way to itunes. Anyone know if this is correct from what the bid says?.

A DAB+ enabled ipod could be really good if Apple decide to make one!

[kev]

Originally Posted by hanssolo

I am still trying to work out how the AAC DAB podcasting will work.
Looks like there will be a 80k channel in the data 30% part of the multiplex. The various podcasts from various stations: Gaydar, Club Asia, NME, IMG, Penguin, Financial Times, Prince's Trust, Media Trust and Colourful will be feed down this, there will have to be special software in the new DAB sets which display podcasts available, so the set owner can say if they want the podcast which will be downloaded to the sets memory, so that it can be heard "on demand" when selected on a list shown on the sets display. The sets will be able to download the podcast automatically for the next day in a simular way to itunes. Anyone know if this is correct from what the bid says?.

That sounds about right - although with CPW onboard I wouldn't be surprised if the first handset is a revised Lobster, I would imagine all the podcasts would be downloaded. During the day the bandwidth is less (16k IIRC). Having to faff around with a PC makes podcasts unattractive, and having it built into a mobile phone could work well (i.e. while it's charging overnight it uses the higher bandwidth available to download everything) - however the nature of DAB means that they will have to get the aerials to work well without headphones attached (charger cable on the first version?)

[Westward]

Originally Posted by kev

The licence document specifically mentions that any AAC+ services will be classed as DATA and therefore can accommodate a maximum of 30% of the multiplex (less once DLS, DAB Slideshow, and the EPG have been accommodated). Audio services MUST be MP2.

The licence operator will switch to AAC+ for audio services at some point during the licence period. Ofcom have said that it is "inevitable" that the UK will switch to DAB+ at some point, and Channel 4 are keen to switch to DAB+ as soon as practically possible.

DAB+ will improve network coverage slightly because of the Reed-Solomon error correction.

[kev]

Originally Posted by Westward

DAB+ will improve network coverage slightly because of the Reed-Solomon error correction.

No more than 2% according to Channel 4's bid.

No where have I seen that they WILL migrate to AAC+ during the licence period - although Channel 4 would like to....

[MikeBr]

Originally Posted by kev

No more than 2% according to Channel 4's bid.

No where have I seen that they WILL migrate to AAC+ during the licence period - although Channel 4 would like to....

The bid is from 4 Digital which as well as Channel 4 includes as shareholders EMAP, UTV, Chrysalis and UBC.

The National Grid Wireless Bid also mentions possible eventual migration to DAB+ and there is a suggested plan to achieve this in the confidential section of their application.

In the non confidential section there's a section about a newly constituted Digital Radio Development Bureau, which 4 Digital are also proposing, which would set a timetable for technology changes, such as migration to DAB+, and even the incorporation of DRM, by insisting that radio carrying a suggested kitemark after a certain date both support improved functionality and are backward compatible.

[mjk79]

Originally Posted by kev

Explain then why Capital Life now sounds awful on "walkman" style radios

Because walkman style DAB radios are for the most part utterly useless and don't provide reliable reception?

Besides the vast majority of those who are interested in listening to music on the move owns an iPod or similar; digital radio has pretty much lost out here.

My listening hours to that station went from around 7 hours a day to 0 minutes per day when it went mono because of that. The lack of stereo is highly noticeable.

The fact that you even own a pocket DAB radio and listened to Capital Life for 7 hours a day means that your habits aren't all that representative of the rest of the population out there.

In any case that they have switched to mono, that there are many other mono services broadcasting, and that there are still listeners to these services means that they must be viable for the broadcaster; otherwise we'd see everyone desperate to switch to stereo.

Ignoring for one minute the BBC who desperately need to improve their network coverage (something DAB+ won't help with), I have found in car DAB coverage to be excellent, and hand held to be generally better than FM (except for 2 stations I don't listen to anyway).

My point about reception was really aimed at mobile receivers (i.e. pocket radios).

The problem with in-car receivers certainly isn't reception, but the fact that no significant number of cars have them fitted. What does seem to have become increasingly ubiquitous though on new cars recently is a connection for an MP3 player, but not much sign of DAB radio.

[kev]

Originally Posted by mjk79

Because walkman style DAB radios are for the most part utterly useless and don't provide reliable reception?

That's when it is providing reliable reception (FWIW Planet Rock still sounds the same as normal)....

Besides the vast majority of those who are interested in listening to music on the move owns an iPod or similar; digital radio has pretty much lost out here.

And it doesn't help itself when it's listeners abandon the platform to use their MP3 players when the service starts sounding worse than it used to...

The fact that you even own a pocket DAB radio and listened to Capital Life for 7 hours a day means that your habits aren't all that representative of the rest of the population out there.

Listening to one station all day long isn't all that unrepresentative amongst those who listen to the radio at work - my colleagues have and continue to do the same with BBC 6 Music, Xfm and Radio 1 (although they all do it online).

In any case that they have switched to mono, that there are many other mono services broadcasting, and that there are still listeners to these services means that they must be viable for the broadcaster; otherwise we'd see everyone desperate to switch to stereo.

On my DAB radio I can only see five mono music based stations - Core, Capital Life, BBC Asian Network, Classic Gold GEM and theJazz, three of which are all intertwined with the buggering up of Life.

My point about reception was really aimed at mobile receivers (i.e. pocket radios).

I'd be interested too see how much of the population is likely to see improved coverage - especially in areas like this where the BBC National DAB signal is rock solid to the east of the Fosseway (A46) in the Vale-of-Belvoir (Where you can see the Waltham transmitter towering above the landscape) but which quickly fades as you descend (ever so slightly) into the Greater Nottingham area, before dropping out 3km outside it (which coincidently happens to be where NOW suffers from slightly dodgy but acceptable coverage and the FM services start to be listenable again - i.e. where Waltham gives up happens to be within 1km of where Mapperley Ridge gives up...)...

I need to be convinced that RSE will offer more gains than just providing solid reception where it's slightly bubelly at the moment as that zone is rather small anyway - can it really provide rock solid reception where you currently get "No Signal". I can see it helping in towns like Newark-on-Trent and Preston which have a DAB signal which is perfectly fine on any fixed receiver, but is a tad bubbly on a handheld though. (Saying that, my dad is on his second DAB handheld (the first got smashed) and even with that bubbling is impressed with it as he can listen to Radio 5 Live (something that is otherwise missing on a handheld in the Preston area).

The problem with in-car receivers certainly isn't reception, but the fact that no significant number of cars have them fitted.

The need for a new antenna (and various manufactures insistence on developing their own propriatory connectors) doesn't help their - where as if every car used an ISO standard stereo and standardised aerial socket it would be a much easier sell. I've personally found my Fiesta's FM aerial to perform excellently on DAB (only losing NOW Nottingham reception where NTL's map indicates is uncovered), but I know others have not been as lucky.

[hanssolo]

Another new inexpensive DAB+ chipset announced from EtherWaves,
http://www.drdb.org/article.php?id=561&from=hom
"EtherWaves is penetrating the French and Australian markets" (not UK)

However the module with SD card looks like it could do the storage needed for the ch4 radio podcasts.

[hanssolo]

I see Germany has started increasing existing band III main DAB TX powers from 1kw to 10kw and may help DAB take up if/when they migrate to DAB+.
Here we already have about 40 main 10kw DAB TXs.

At The London Digital Radio Show in June if you have £599 spare you can hear about DAB+

the benefits of DAB+ to the broadcaster.
By further looking into the broadcast opportunities one will better understand how this new technology can be introduced into worldwide markets.
1415 Technical Overview of DAB+
Leif Lonsmann, Vice Chairman WorldDMB and Danmarks Radio
1430 Technical Overview of DAB+
Frank Herrmann, Project Leader DAB/DMB,
Panasonic, Germany
1450 Opportunities and advantages with DAB+
Larissa Erismann, Chairperson of WorldDMB
Marketing Committee, Switzerland
1510 What is in it for the Broadcaster?
Joan Warner, CEO, Commercial Radio Australia Ltd
1530 DAB+ Receivers
Colin Crawford, Director of Marketing, PURE Digital
1550 Panel: DAB+ Future in Europe

For the rest of us there is a free radio exhibition
http://www.digital-radio-show.com/