Sky EPG changes coming: two-tier EPG...plus new channel lauch rules - Sky

Strathclyde · 01-11-2007, 13:55

I earlier posted this in the "weekly changes" thread, but it probably has wider interest...

Sky has sent its promised follow-up letter to all broadcasters, after its announcement (Oct 3rd) of the freeze on the addition of new channels to the launch waiting list...and it includes a description of substantial changes to the EPG.

They're calling it a "consultation" with broadcasters, and are inviting comments (though many will feel that Sky's idea of "consultation" isn't generally what most people mean by the word).

Sky is talking about some new Sky+ boxes, having more processing power, with an EPG which has a new look & feel, even though the data supplied by broadcasters will remain the same. Introduction date is "at some time during 2008". Older boxes will NOT get the new-style EPG.

Key features:

- replacing the 4-level top menu with a 10-level one (TV Guide; Planner;Anytime; Box office;Interactive; Radio; Search;Parental control; Options;Settings)
- a "mini tv" option (1/8th screen) carrying the last channel viewed (in audio and video)... which will change, while browsing the EPG, to the current selected channel
- Genres displayed at TV Guide level, with pop-ups expanding the genre
- 24 channels per page (or 12 if the "mini TV" option is on)
- Series links by default when "Record" is selected
- Improved Search (on up to 10 letters, and for 7 days; symbol indicating multiple instances of a programme, rather than all immediately shown)
- Search & Scan will show when a programme started, and synopsis displayable via the "i".

The "consultation" also covers proposed new rules for channels wanting to be listed on the EPG, which includes:

- Increase in minimum required hours of non-repeated programmes per day/week/month
- requirements for HD channels (if they want to be listed as HD)
- complex changes around genre allocation/moving
- complex rules re trading & swapping of EPG slots

There's no mention of when Sky hopes/plans to solve the "problem" of old boxes. So a lot of this is tantamount to Sky becoming a regulator of the "scarce" resource of available EPG slots. In effect, it'll make it tougher to launch a new channel.

digitalsatman · 01-11-2007, 16:34

OK, let's all think this through.

Firstly, the plan is to change the 4 level to a 10 level.
Let's think how this can happen. My idea is that the 'icons' will dissapear at the top of the page, and simply be repalced with a menu, with TV Guide, Planner, Anytime, etc as the options, so:

Code:

1 TV Guide
2 Planner
3 Anytime
4 Box Office
and so on...

How on earth the TV Guide is going to get 24 channels on is beyond me.I can only assume that the EPG will only show what is on now, so:

Code:

101 BBC ONE     EastEnders        102 BBC TWO     Delias Kitchen
103 ITV1 Yorks  Coronation Street 104 Channel 4    Racing

And so on...

And, another question is: With the mini TV taking up 1/8the of the screen, what will go in the space next to this mini TV? It will be like this:

Code:

All Channels                     ------------
                                 ---MiniTV--
                                 ------------
                                 ------------
           
                    Now              30min                 60min
101 BBC One       EastEnders   The One Show   The Two Show

and so on: What goes in the space next to the miniTV?

Next, the genres. Pop-ups: What on earth!? How can this be integrated? I can only assume it's like this:

Code:

1 TV Guide
So the user presses 1, and TV Guide genres appear:

1 Entertainment
2 Lifestyle & Culture
3 Movies
4 Sports

And so on...

- Series links by default when "Record" is selected: OK, that seems easy to integrate.
- Improved Search (on up to 10 letters, and for 7 days; symbol indicating multiple instances of a programme, rather than all immediately shown): A good idea, I can see that coming quite easily
- Search & Scan will show when a programme started, and synopsis displayable via the "i": What's this about?

So what do we all think?

Tom

rai uno · 01-11-2007, 16:45

I think if BSkyB allowed NDS CAMS to be widely available, then you can do as us non-Sky bods do and generate your own EPG.

Picture in vision whilst EPG'ing is very common, as is maintaining the selected Channel's audio, being able to create your own Genres, multiple Favourites lists and much, much more.

KeiranW · 01-11-2007, 17:09

Quote:

with an EPG which has a new look & feel, even though the data supplied by broadcasters will remain the same.

Hopefully that wont be the same Blue thing will it?
Its about time they move on, Ok the Blue is fast and snappy, But it is ever so outdated and a new look and feel can only mean a new design altogether and not just changing of a few sections?

Strathclyde · 01-11-2007, 18:00

Tom [digitalsatman], I necessarily abbreviated a 24-page document, but you've pretty well got it right (at least as I interpret it). The top menu is to have the 10 choices across the top. Equally, the genre screen will have the genres across the top, and selection will then appear when you select the tab.

The mini Tv will be in the top RH corner. Two columns will be used for listings - 6 if the miniTV is there, 12 if not. Sorry...I may have misled: my point re 12/24 listings is wrt to radio and interactive.

Next to the miniTV screen will be an area which displays info on the selected service, as selected by the viewer - eg synopsis if a programme, or menu item description if that's what's selected.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we poor souls who haven't yet gone to widescreen are going to suffer, but the ideas broadly seem good.

I can't say I feel the same about their proposed ideas for regulating the platform, but that's another matter.

ProDave · 01-11-2007, 18:15

Reading between the lines:

The NEW EPG will only be on Sky+ boxes.

MOST new installs now are sky+

The New EPG will continue to be developed.

OLDER boxes will not get the new EPG

SO - Is this the end of software development for older "standard" digiboxes, will they never get any more software updates?

coopermanyorks · 01-11-2007, 18:22

Maybe even current Sky+ boxes wont get it it , just the 2008 generation

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProDave

Reading between the lines:
The NEW EPG will only be on Sky+ boxes.
MOST new installs now are sky+
The New EPG will continue to be developed.
OLDER boxes will not get the new EPG
SO - Is this the end of software development for older "standard" digiboxes, will they never get any more software updates?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strathclyde

Sky is talking about some new Sky+ boxes, having more processing power, with an EPG which has a new look & feel, even though the data supplied by broadcasters will remain the same. Introduction date is "at some time during 2008". Older boxes will NOT get the new-style EPG.

Jarrak · 01-11-2007, 18:24

It'll be interesting to see how the combine realtime access to the EPG and have access to a live channel in a PIP window. Of course using two tuners is the obvious answer or efficient caching of the EPG on the hard drive but both solutions have potential problems.

newuser · 01-11-2007, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarrak

It'll be interesting to see how the combine realtime access to the EPG and have access to a live channel in a PIP window. Of course using two tuners is the obvious answer or efficient caching of the EPG on the hard drive but both solutions have potential problems.

Don't forget the limitations of the EPG when two recordings are in progress i.e. cannot display synopsis information.

Strathclyde · 01-11-2007, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by newuser

Don't forget the limitations of the EPG when two recordings are in progress i.e. cannot display synopsis information.

.... on CURRENT Sky+ and HD boxes!

newuser · 01-11-2007, 19:04

Yes it strikes me that the best result would be for the box to download and store EPG data overnight or even during the day if the box detects that it is not being used so that this information does not conflict with watching/recording a live stream. Of course if two recordings are being done, it is hard to see how the PIP on the TV guide would work

Strathclyde · 01-11-2007, 19:16

Well, all the new boxes are installed around a quad LNB, so installing a third tuner/cable wouldn't be out of the question. or maybe there just (as an alternative) have to be acceptance that some functionality is disabled if one (or two) recordings are in progress.

£65 one-off if you want added functionality. Well....

I don't think o'night download of the EPG is a runner - too many channels update EPGs on the same day.

Jarrak · 01-11-2007, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strathclyde

.... on CURRENT Sky+ and HD boxes!

Exactly which is why I'm interested in how they will get it to work and if compromises are going to be the order of the date for a dual tuner system.

davemurgatroyd · 01-11-2007, 22:55

Why does everybody assume the next generation box will only be twin tuner. Pace have been offering this to providers for nearly two years now
http://www.pacemicro.com/corporate/p...ERIC-Multiroom

4 tuners, inbuilt multiroom capability,HD

Jarrak · 01-11-2007, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemurgatroyd

Why does everybody assume the next generation box will only be twin tuner. Pace have been offering this to providers for nearly two years now
http://www.pacemicro.com/corporate/p...ERIC-Multiroom

4 tuners, inbuilt multiroom capability,HD

Well can't speak for anyone else but I am speculating on the OP's use of SKY+ in terms of the new EPG and baseline spec upgrades with no mention of the roadmapped server/client system we know is coming.

It makes a lot of sense that the SKY+ type unit will be the cornerstone of SKY for years to come with a number of true generations at hand, the server/client or IPTV based type systems are going to be high priced niche products for quite a while after launch.

SilentLoner · 01-11-2007, 23:42

who knows, who knows?

coopermanyorks · 02-11-2007, 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemurgatroyd

Why does everybody assume the next generation box will only be twin tuner. Pace have been offering this to providers for nearly two years now
http://www.pacemicro.com/corporate/p...ERIC-Multiroom

4 tuners, inbuilt multiroom capability,HD

I wish I had a pound for everytime that link as been posted in the last 18 + months

Do Pace actually make it , if so , where in the world is it actually been used and sold

I get the feeling its not the next Gen box , but the one after that

Maybe the next Gen is just a beefed up Sky+ , bigger hard drive more memory and more tuners and dual output in a redesigned box

blueplatinum · 02-11-2007, 08:42

I think SKY have realised that they have to exclude old boxes from the future of the EPG due to the limitations they have recently run into.

Obviously this is going to be more palitable if the future EPG is so fantastic that it can be seen to be justifiable that only people with newer boxes get it.

If they excuded the old boxes but didn't really add any value to the EPG then it would be seen a ploy to force people to upgrade simply to see all the channels available.

Chris Simon · 02-11-2007, 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by davemurgatroyd

Why does everybody assume the next generation box will only be twin tuner. Pace have been offering this to providers for nearly two years now

I wish I could find that interview with a Sky bod recently! I mentioned it on another thread but I can't remember where I saw the interview, it might have been here, on another site, or in a mag. Does anyone else remember it?

Anyway, it mentioned that Sky don't think that the client/server system is not yet appropriate for the market and the next solution is likely to be a box with independent video outputs for each tuner rather than a streaming system which requires a client

pkc · 02-11-2007, 10:59

These changes seem along the lines of Directv epg system.

pgnl · 02-11-2007, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strathclyde

Well, all the new boxes are installed around a quad LNB, so installing a third tuner/cable wouldn't be out of the question.

I know this is slightly off topic, but a third or even a second cable isn't necessary using the technology form this company. http://www.entropic.com/ (see DBS Outdoor unit). It's mentioned in this months What Satellite magazine.

It's gotta be the future...

Patrick

digitalsatman · 02-11-2007, 11:25

I remember the interview, it said about the search and a 'completely different EPG'

On another note, does anyone have a copy of this guide that was sent to broadcasters?

Tom

Halfnew · 02-11-2007, 11:54

I'm guessing this will be the EPG that is similarly used on DirecTV. When I went to NDS for interview they were showing off the new style EPG software (this one had BBC channels that flipped through like folders it seemed).

So it will be miles different to the current EPG, it is totally different and is far more graphic intensive.

Blake Connolly · 02-11-2007, 11:59

Looks to me like the idea would be to store EPG data on part of the hard drive area set aside for Sky Anytime (hence newer Sky+ boxes only, plus presumably Sky HD).

That would free up a tuner for the video stream in the corner, and would be the only way you could access other programme's synopis info via the search and scan banner - a feature I know many people on DS have been wanting for years and years.

A few people here have rasied an issue with changes to the EPG during the day - for example a late programme over-running. As far as I know each transponder carries a 6 or 12 hour EPG (which is what you get with the search and scan banner) so any late changes will still be noted whatever channel you're watching, it's just the full 7-day one you get when you press "TV Guide" that needs to come from it's own transponder and is the one I'm guessing they plan to put on the hard drive. This idea opens up all sorts of possibilities depending on how much hard drive space they want to use, for example it would mean they could move up to a 14-day EPG if they could get the data from the broadcasters.

As a HD viewer I'd love to see a nice shiny 1080i EPG rather than the slightly rough and blocky SD one we have at the moment, but I'm not sure if that would be possible within the limitations of the HD box itself.

I suppose this would be part of the solution to that EPG crisis where the older boxes are running out of space, but would that create a two-tier system where viewers with regular boxes or older Sky+ boxes would not get the latest channels?

jon41 · 02-11-2007, 12:07

Normally Foxtel in Australia get all the new procucts and services before us in the UK - Looking at this screen image of their "on demand" (Anytime to us) it looks as if they have the new system, of course the preview is of anytime but the the top options are in the correct order

http://www.foxtel.com.au/ondemand/default.htm

01-11-2007, 13:55	#1
Strathclyde Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,125	Sky EPG changes coming: two-tier EPG...plus new channel lauch rules I earlier posted this in the "weekly changes" thread, but it probably has wider interest... Sky has sent its promised follow-up letter to all broadcasters, after its announcement (Oct 3rd) of the freeze on the addition of new channels to the launch waiting list...and it includes a description of substantial changes to the EPG. They're calling it a "consultation" with broadcasters, and are inviting comments (though many will feel that Sky's idea of "consultation" isn't generally what most people mean by the word). Sky is talking about some new Sky+ boxes, having more processing power, with an EPG which has a new look & feel, even though the data supplied by broadcasters will remain the same. Introduction date is "at some time during 2008". Older boxes will NOT get the new-style EPG. Key features: - replacing the 4-level top menu with a 10-level one (TV Guide; Planner;Anytime; Box office;Interactive; Radio; Search;Parental control; Options;Settings) - a "mini tv" option (1/8th screen) carrying the last channel viewed (in audio and video)... which will change, while browsing the EPG, to the current selected channel - Genres displayed at TV Guide level, with pop-ups expanding the genre - 24 channels per page (or 12 if the "mini TV" option is on) - Series links by default when "Record" is selected - Improved Search (on up to 10 letters, and for 7 days; symbol indicating multiple instances of a programme, rather than all immediately shown) - Search & Scan will show when a programme started, and synopsis displayable via the "i". The "consultation" also covers proposed new rules for channels wanting to be listed on the EPG, which includes: - Increase in minimum required hours of non-repeated programmes per day/week/month - requirements for HD channels (if they want to be listed as HD) - complex changes around genre allocation/moving - complex rules re trading & swapping of EPG slots There's no mention of when Sky hopes/plans to solve the "problem" of old boxes. So a lot of this is tantamount to Sky becoming a regulator of the "scarce" resource of available EPG slots. In effect, it'll make it tougher to launch a new channel.

01-11-2007, 16:34	#2
digitalsatman Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: W Yorks Services: 2 x Sky+ HD, Sky World, 50Mb BB, iPhone 3GS 32GB, Labour Party Supporter Posts: 6,817	OK, let's all think this through. Firstly, the plan is to change the 4 level to a 10 level. Let's think how this can happen. My idea is that the 'icons' will dissapear at the top of the page, and simply be repalced with a menu, with TV Guide, Planner, Anytime, etc as the options, so: Code: 1 TV Guide 2 Planner 3 Anytime 4 Box Office and so on... How on earth the TV Guide is going to get 24 channels on is beyond me.I can only assume that the EPG will only show what is on now, so: Code: 101 BBC ONE EastEnders 102 BBC TWO Delias Kitchen 103 ITV1 Yorks Coronation Street 104 Channel 4 Racing And so on... And, another question is: With the mini TV taking up 1/8the of the screen, what will go in the space next to this mini TV? It will be like this: Code: All Channels ------------ ---MiniTV-- ------------ ------------ Now 30min 60min 101 BBC One EastEnders The One Show The Two Show and so on: What goes in the space next to the miniTV? Next, the genres. Pop-ups: What on earth!? How can this be integrated? I can only assume it's like this: Code: 1 TV Guide So the user presses 1, and TV Guide genres appear: 1 Entertainment 2 Lifestyle & Culture 3 Movies 4 Sports And so on... - Series links by default when "Record" is selected: OK, that seems easy to integrate. - Improved Search (on up to 10 letters, and for 7 days; symbol indicating multiple instances of a programme, rather than all immediately shown): A good idea, I can see that coming quite easily - Search & Scan will show when a programme started, and synopsis displayable via the "i": What's this about? So what do we all think? Tom

01-11-2007, 16:45	#3
rai uno Inactive Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Tremp (Catalunya) Services: Variety of Motorised and Fixed Non-Sky Satellite Systems Posts: 20,830	I think if BSkyB allowed NDS CAMS to be widely available, then you can do as us non-Sky bods do and generate your own EPG. Picture in vision whilst EPG'ing is very common, as is maintaining the selected Channel's audio, being able to create your own Genres, multiple Favourites lists and much, much more.

01-11-2007, 18:00	#5
Strathclyde Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,125	Tom [digitalsatman], I necessarily abbreviated a 24-page document, but you've pretty well got it right (at least as I interpret it). The top menu is to have the 10 choices across the top. Equally, the genre screen will have the genres across the top, and selection will then appear when you select the tab. The mini Tv will be in the top RH corner. Two columns will be used for listings - 6 if the miniTV is there, 12 if not. Sorry...I may have misled: my point re 12/24 listings is wrt to radio and interactive. Next to the miniTV screen will be an area which displays info on the selected service, as selected by the viewer - eg synopsis if a programme, or menu item description if that's what's selected. I have a sneaking suspicion that we poor souls who haven't yet gone to widescreen are going to suffer, but the ideas broadly seem good. I can't say I feel the same about their proposed ideas for regulating the platform, but that's another matter.

01-11-2007, 18:15	#6
ProDave Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Northern Scottish Highlands Services: Freesat From Sky+ HD, Astra 1 / Hotbird FTA, Freeview, Freeview PVR, ADSL Posts: 7,254	Reading between the lines: The NEW EPG will only be on Sky+ boxes. MOST new installs now are sky+ The New EPG will continue to be developed. OLDER boxes will not get the new EPG SO - Is this the end of software development for older "standard" digiboxes, will they never get any more software updates?

01-11-2007, 18:24	#8
Jarrak Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ilkeston Services: SKY+ HD, Freesat via PC, Philips DTR 1500 & Humax 9200 Freeview, SKY Max Posts: 17,424	It'll be interesting to see how the combine realtime access to the EPG and have access to a live channel in a PIP window. Of course using two tuners is the obvious answer or efficient caching of the EPG on the hard drive but both solutions have potential problems.

01-11-2007, 19:04	#11
newuser Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Services: SkyHD, Freeview, BT Broadband, o2 Posts: 117	Yes it strikes me that the best result would be for the box to download and store EPG data overnight or even during the day if the box detects that it is not being used so that this information does not conflict with watching/recording a live stream. Of course if two recordings are being done, it is hard to see how the PIP on the TV guide would work

01-11-2007, 19:16	#12
Strathclyde Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,125	Well, all the new boxes are installed around a quad LNB, so installing a third tuner/cable wouldn't be out of the question. or maybe there just (as an alternative) have to be acceptance that some functionality is disabled if one (or two) recordings are in progress. £65 one-off if you want added functionality. Well.... I don't think o'night download of the EPG is a runner - too many channels update EPGs on the same day.

01-11-2007, 22:55	#14
davemurgatroyd Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oxford Services: SkyHD, Sky+,TM9100,Fortec 5100 CI Diamond,Targa TSR5200 PVR.Freeview PVRs Posts: 8,136	Why does everybody assume the next generation box will only be twin tuner. Pace have been offering this to providers for nearly two years now http://www.pacemicro.com/corporate/p...ERIC-Multiroom 4 tuners, inbuilt multiroom capability,HD

01-11-2007, 23:42	#16
SilentLoner Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Wales Services: PSN=SilentLoner Posts: 3,533	who knows, who knows?

02-11-2007, 08:42	#18
blueplatinum Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gran Canaria, Spain Services: ADSL 1 Meg., SKY HD (Thomson DSI8215WD), Sky+ 160, TDT (Spanish freeview) Posts: 875	I think SKY have realised that they have to exclude old boxes from the future of the EPG due to the limitations they have recently run into. Obviously this is going to be more palitable if the future EPG is so fantastic that it can be seen to be justifiable that only people with newer boxes get it. If they excuded the old boxes but didn't really add any value to the EPG then it would be seen a ploy to force people to upgrade simply to see all the channels available.

02-11-2007, 10:59	#20
pkc Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brighton Services: SKY, FREEVIEW, Digifusion PVR 200, UKonline BB Posts: 4,428	These changes seem along the lines of Directv epg system.

02-11-2007, 11:25	#22
digitalsatman Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: W Yorks Services: 2 x Sky+ HD, Sky World, 50Mb BB, iPhone 3GS 32GB, Labour Party Supporter Posts: 6,817	I remember the interview, it said about the search and a 'completely different EPG' On another note, does anyone have a copy of this guide that was sent to broadcasters? Tom

02-11-2007, 11:54	#23
Halfnew Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 32	I'm guessing this will be the EPG that is similarly used on DirecTV. When I went to NDS for interview they were showing off the new style EPG software (this one had BBC channels that flipped through like folders it seemed). So it will be miles different to the current EPG, it is totally different and is far more graphic intensive.

02-11-2007, 11:59	#24
Blake Connolly Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North London Services: Sky HD, Sky BB, PS3 Posts: 8,808	Looks to me like the idea would be to store EPG data on part of the hard drive area set aside for Sky Anytime (hence newer Sky+ boxes only, plus presumably Sky HD). That would free up a tuner for the video stream in the corner, and would be the only way you could access other programme's synopis info via the search and scan banner - a feature I know many people on DS have been wanting for years and years. A few people here have rasied an issue with changes to the EPG during the day - for example a late programme over-running. As far as I know each transponder carries a 6 or 12 hour EPG (which is what you get with the search and scan banner) so any late changes will still be noted whatever channel you're watching, it's just the full 7-day one you get when you press "TV Guide" that needs to come from it's own transponder and is the one I'm guessing they plan to put on the hard drive. This idea opens up all sorts of possibilities depending on how much hard drive space they want to use, for example it would mean they could move up to a 14-day EPG if they could get the data from the broadcasters. As a HD viewer I'd love to see a nice shiny 1080i EPG rather than the slightly rough and blocky SD one we have at the moment, but I'm not sure if that would be possible within the limitations of the HD box itself. I suppose this would be part of the solution to that EPG crisis where the older boxes are running out of space, but would that create a two-tier system where viewers with regular boxes or older Sky+ boxes would not get the latest channels?

02-11-2007, 12:07	#25
jon41 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Services: Sky HD x4 Etherstream - iphone (2G &3G) Blackberry Bold PIN:21035DA1 Posts: 802	Normally Foxtel in Australia get all the new procucts and services before us in the UK - Looking at this screen image of their "on demand" (Anytime to us) it looks as if they have the new system, of course the preview is of anytime but the the top options are in the correct order http://www.foxtel.com.au/ondemand/default.htm