[Nigel Goodwin]

Launch date now planned for end of May.

Companies involved:

phase 1 - DSG, Comet, JL
phase 2 - CIH Euronics, M & S, Argos, Tesco
phase 3 - non-Euronics independents in 2009

Target retail prices:

Freesat non-HD (box only) £35 excluding dish.
Freesat HD (box only) £99 excluding dish.
Freesat HD PVR (box only) £149 excluding dish.

No mention of non-HD PVR's, and surprisingly (to me) a non-PVR HD box.

The BBC are specifying a 60cm dish ONLY, I wonder if that's simply to avoid having two different dishes, depending where you are?.

Still no installers arranged, Freesat are still wanting a £50 install charge, with the installer only getting £35 of it.

Apparently the Humax boxes are being assembled by Pioneer at a plant in Wakefield, Yorkshire.

[ProDave]

I hope you've got your tin hat on Nigel as I am sure you will be torn apart

IF those prices are correct they sound good. A basic SD box with install for £85, makes the Sky Pay once deal not worth the hastle of having to cancel the subscription etc, and completely kills the standard freesat from sky for £150 (if sky don't kill it off anyway)

The dish size thing will no doubt confuse joe public. Fair enough for a new install, even in the South there's nothing wrong with a 60cm dish, but it will confuse a LOT of current sky subscribers in the south who currently have a zone 1 minidish, and will be missguided into thinking they have to replace it with a 60cm dish for freesat.

The lack of SD PVR's is also a bit strange. Again that will confuse. A lot of people won't know that you CAN use an HD PVR with your standard existing telly (though of course it won't display hd) but it will then be ready for when you are ready to change your set.

I'm not sure how they work out those install prices. So it's £50 for the install and the installer gets £35. Does that mean the £15 pays for the dish, lnb, coax, fixings etc, or does the installer have to provide some or all of that from his £35. Not too bad for the installer if the install is straightforward and all materials are supplied, but I can see it being a lot of work for little reward on a difficult install if the installer also has to provide materials.

Of course the best bit of this is I will be able to watch channel 4, five and their siblings FTA from the end of May then

[slacker17]

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Target retail prices:

Freesat non-HD (box only) £35 excluding dish.
Freesat HD (box only) £99 excluding dish.
Freesat HD PVR (box only) £149 excluding dish.

No mention of non-HD PVR's, and surprisingly (to me) a non-PVR HD box.

You've listed a non-PVR HD box or are you suprised they've made one?

[qpw3141]

If this is correct it looks quite promising.

The only sad thing is that the HDPVR will be Humax as their stuff does not seem to be that good, going by what one can see in the PVR forums.

We'll have to see how the early adopters get on.

If they are really going to launch in 10-12 weeks we can presumably expect a public announcement any day now.

[qpw3141]

One interesting point from those figures:

The price differential between an SD and an HD box appears to be £64.

That would seem to make it a mistake not to include an SD PVR as using the same differential would give a price of £85.

Or are the current manufacturers just profiteering on the HD box?

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by slacker17

You've listed a non-PVR HD box or are you suprised they've made one?

I'm suprised they have made one, essentially it means you have programmes that you can't record - seems a silly idea?.

Bear in mind, those are 'target' retail prices, from Freesat, not actual prices from the manufacturers.

[ProDave]

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Bear in mind, those are 'target' retail prices, from Freesat, not actual prices from the manufacturers.

They probably won't get down to that level until phase 2 when the likes of Tesco get on board.

[Jarrak]

Well my first question would be is the HD DVR a twin tuner (not a daft question after seeing a single tuner DVR from PACE for Freeview in the early days) and if so then woohoo but of course they mean nothing if that's a target price say for next year and not the actual retail price at launch

[J L Jones]

Who gets the other £15 from the install charge? Freesat, or the seller of the set top box?
I expressed my doubts here recently that it would be possible to buy just the box if you already have a dish, and this £15 cut does nothing to dispel them.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by J L Jones

Who gets the other £15 from the install charge? Freesat, or the seller of the set top box?
I expressed my doubts here recently that it would be possible to buy just the box if you already have a dish, and this £15 cut does nothing to dispel them.

Presumably the shop gets it?, or Freesat does?.

As an ASA we don't take a cut of the Sky install charges, we pass it all to the installer who does the work.

It's always been said you will be able to buy just the receiver, receiver with a DIY dish pack, or receiver with dish pack and professional installation - really every option you need.

[Dogmatix]

At those prices we can expect a complete lack of "extras" or "essentials" (choose word according to need) like twin tuners, Diseqc, alphanumeric display, CAM slot(s), USB/LAN/WLAN connectivity etc, etc & so 4th.

[Dogmatix]

Originally Posted by ProDave

...I will be able to watch channel 4, five and their siblings FTA from the end of May then

I thought Five & co. were stuck in their Sky contract until late in the year?

And I suppose that any of those channels will shift to Astra 2D when (if?) they go FTA

[jon_c]

Originally Posted by qpw3141

The only sad thing is that the HDPVR will be Humax as their stuff does not seem to be that good, going by what one can see in the PVR forums.

I'm not convinced that's a fair appraisal, particuarly versus their competition.

Quite a few folk here seem to be singing the praises of Topfield (and lamenting the fact they won't be involved with freesat) as well as being disappointed that Humax look to be the initial PVR supplier. The two best DVB-T PVRs available in the UK, at least to my mind, are the Topfield TF5800PVR and the Humax PVR9200T. In reality, there's not that much between them and, at least out of the box, the Humax is the more user friendly machine. Assuming some of the goodness of the DVB-T PVR9200T makes its way into the Humax freesat DVB-S2 PVR, then there's no reason to not be optimistic; I'm not sure you'll find much difference in the volume of issues raised at toppy.org.uk than you'll find at hummy.org.uk, for example.

Note that I speak here as a very happy Topfield DVB-T PVR owner optimistically hoping for a decent Humax freesat PVR to buy my parents...

[brattbakkk]

Originally Posted by qpw3141

If this is correct it looks quite promising.

The only sad thing is that the HDPVR will be Humax as their stuff does not seem to be that good, going by what one can see in the PVR forums.

We'll have to see how the early adopters get on.

If they are really going to launch in 10-12 weeks we can presumably expect a public announcement any day now.

Ahem.....I've had a 9200 PVR for a couple of years with no probs

[Jarrak]

Originally Posted by brattbakkk

Ahem.....I've had a 9200 PVR for a couple of years with no probs

Yep same here, I bought a 9200 soon after it launched (had a hard to time finding one in stores at the time) and after an initial month of random lock ups it settled down and has performed very well since then. It recently had the updated firmware (FreeviewPlayback) which added their version of series links and that start on time app and again performing well.

I would have no problem buying a Humax badged Freesat box.

[mydarling]

Originally Posted by jon_c

I'm not convinced that's a fair appraisal, particuarly versus their competition.

Quite a few folk here seem to be singing the praises of Topfield (and lamenting the fact they won't be involved with freesat) as well as being disappointed that Humax look to be the initial PVR supplier. The two best DVB-T PVRs available in the UK, at least to my mind, are the Topfield TF5800PVR and the Humax PVR9200T. In reality, there's not that much between them and, at least out of the box, the Humax is the more user friendly machine. Assuming some of the goodness of the DVB-T PVR9200T makes its way into the Humax freesat DVB-S2 PVR, then there's no reason to not be optimistic; I'm not sure you'll find much difference in the volume of issues raised at toppy.org.uk than you'll find at hummy.org.uk, for example.

Note that I speak here as a very happy Topfield DVB-T PVR owner optimistically hoping for a decent Humax freesat PVR to buy my parents...

I'd agree with that assessment. We've had our Topfield PVR for 2 years and love it. I would definately consider buying a Freesat model.

[qpw3141]

Originally Posted by Jarrak

Yep same here, I bought a 9200 soon after it launched (had a hard to time finding one in stores at the time) and after an initial month of random lock ups it settled down and has performed very well since then. It recently had the updated firmware (FreeviewPlayback) which added their version of series links and that start on time app and again performing well.

I would have no problem buying a Humax badged Freesat box.

I do wish people would understand that it doesn't matter that some people have a good experience with a product, it's the people who have a bad experience that matter.

You get exactly the same response on computer forums when people criticise Vista. Someone will always pipe up that they managed to get theirs working without problems.

So what?

Someone will manage to get even the most dire product working.

I can only go on the number of issues seen on the relevant forum here and the fact that despite their having had two and a half years to do very little more than several manufacturers can already do to produce a Sky+ box (just a bit of disentangling of the data streams) they still seem to be in something of a panic in order to get it working (at least, according to someone who claims to be from Humax and posts here).

It really gives me very little confidence.

Fortunately, I have no intention of being an early adopter anyway so I can wait and see if there are a string of 'issues' with the box before even thinking about taking the plunge.

[simeuk]

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

I'm suprised they have made one, essentially it means you have programmes that you can't record - seems a silly idea?.

Bear in mind, those are 'target' retail prices, from Freesat, not actual prices from the manufacturers.

Many thanks for the update - just what all the viewers on this thread have been looking for.

BTW - are you going to frame the response from qpw3141!!!!

[brattbakkk]

Originally Posted by qpw3141

I do wish people would understand that it doesn't matter that some people have a good experience with a product, it's the people who have a bad experience that matter.

You get exactly the same response on computer forums when people criticise Vista. Someone will always pipe up that they managed to get theirs working without problems.

So what?

Someone will manage to get even the most dire product working.

I can only go on the number of issues seen on the relevant forum here and the fact that despite their having had two and a half years to do very little more than several manufacturers can already do to produce a Sky+ box (just a bit of disentangling of the data streams) they still seem to be in something of a panic in order to get it working (at least, according to someone who claims to be from Humax and posts here).

It really gives me very little confidence.

Fortunately, I have no intention of being an early adopter anyway so I can wait and see if there are a string of 'issues' with the box before even thinking about taking the plunge.

What!!!! No toe in the water!!! When I get mine I'll give you my honest opinion.

[qpw3141]

Originally Posted by brattbakkk

What!!!! No toe in the water!!! When I get mine I'll give you my honest opinion.

Yes, I'm far more interested in the opinions of people who have tried out what's on offer rather that base a purchase on historical data about other products, good or bad.

I'll look forward to hearing your opinion.

[J L Jones]

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Presumably the shop gets it?, or Freesat does?.

As an ASA we don't take a cut of the Sky install charges, we pass it all to the installer who does the work.

It's always been said you will be able to buy just the receiver, receiver with a DIY dish pack, or receiver with dish pack and professional installation - really every option you need.

It has indeed been said, but that means someone going without their £15 cut. Part of the initial business plan by the sound of it. Buy a Freeview box from Comet, etc, and you're on your own if you need a new aerial. Why should Freesat be different?

[J L Jones]

Originally Posted by Dogmatix

At those prices we can expect a complete lack of "extras" or "essentials" (choose word according to need) like twin tuners, Diseqc, alphanumeric display, CAM slot(s), USB/LAN/WLAN connectivity etc, etc & so 4th.

Twin tuners is an essential to me. Imagine not being able to watch one programme and record another? Buy two boxes and it works out very expensive. Plus the proliferation of remote controls.

[tellytart1]

Originally Posted by qpw3141

I do wish people would understand that it doesn't matter that some people have a good experience with a product, it's the people who have a bad experience that matter.

You get exactly the same response on computer forums when people criticise Vista. Someone will always pipe up that they managed to get theirs working without problems.

So what?

Someone will manage to get even the most dire product working.

I can only go on the number of issues seen on the relevant forum here and the fact that despite their having had two and a half years to do very little more than several manufacturers can already do to produce a Sky+ box (just a bit of disentangling of the data streams) they still seem to be in something of a panic in order to get it working (at least, according to someone who claims to be from Humax and posts here).

It really gives me very little confidence.

Fortunately, I have no intention of being an early adopter anyway so I can wait and see if there are a string of 'issues' with the box before even thinking about taking the plunge.

However, the point you've missed is the fact that very few people post their good experiences to these sorts of forums, but people are only to quick to post their bad experiences. This is true of the net and products in general.

Just because you see a lot of postings about problems does not automatically mean that the majority of people in general have those problems.

It's in the nature of forums that you'll see more bad reviews than good, and as long as you remember that because of this any statistics you create in your head for how reliable something is based on the good/bad postings you see are going to be seriously skewed in favour of the bad side, you should be able to make a more informed decision.

[ProDave]

It sounds like the "freesat model" is just (not before time) going back to the way it always used to be before "Sky Digital"

I remember going with my dad to Wickes, buying a Sky analogue package of the receiver dish and cable and taking it home and installing it. My very first satellite installation. Back then you could choose which receiver you had, and choose to install yourself or pay for an install.

Sky digital came along and changed all that. They decided the public were too dumb to either choose what box they had, or install a dish. So for 9 years the "standard" way to get satellite tv has been to let someone else choose the box for you and fit the dish.

Now thankfully the public will once more have a chance to go and choose a box thay THEY want (based on any number of criteria) and choose how to have it installed.

I wonder if SKY will adopt that model again if it proves popular with the public. I can just see it now when you order Sky, "Which make and model of digibox would you like sir, and would you like us to install the dish or just (for a lower price) deliver the dish for you to install yourself"

Or maybee their "pay once watch forever" offer will cease just being a voucher, but will instead be the actual digibox and a dish, with a choice of models of digibox in store. Then perhaps a voucher for the install if you don't want to do it yourself.

The great thing about the old way was you didn't HAVE to subscribe to sky. When we bought our old analogue system, there was a sky viewing card and a number to phone to activate it. But if you only wanted the free channels, you didn't need to bother with that at all.

It certainly will be interesting how Sky react to Freesat.

[jon_c]

Originally Posted by qpw3141

Someone will manage to get even the most dire product working.

The point is that you'll find complaints about both good and bad products on forums, and the number of complaints aren't always a good indicator of relative performance/reliability. This is especially true if one product is higher volume than another, for example.

Originally Posted by qpw3141

Yes, I'm far more interested in the opinions of people who have tried out what's on offer rather that base a purchase on historical data about other products, good or bad.

...but then why contradict yourself (below) by basing a (partial) view on the products from the manufacturer already out there

Originally Posted by qpw3141

The only sad thing is that the HDPVR will be Humax as their stuff does not seem to be that good, going by what one can see in the PVR forums.

In this case I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. As a prior user of both Topfield and Humax PVRs I can tell you that they both have some issues, in common with every other PVR out there - Tivo, Sky+, Vestel boxes, you name it, I'll find you a forum of complaints. Some PVRs really are poor, and the Panasonic TUCTH100 and the Sagem boxes (even at their low price-point) come into this category. The Humax PVR9200T no more belongs in the same "poor" category than the Topfield TF5800.

None of this, of course, is any proof that the Humax freesat box will be good, but then neither is the body of opinion out there any sort of evidence that it might be bad - far from it, it's the opposite.