[cakefan]

As promised, my post with clues to Kieron’s dark past... It's gonna be at least five posts by the looks of it. Three of them now. The rest tomorrow if there is interest for it.

Many of these clues had caught my attention earlier, but I dismissed them. Because I like Kieron and couldn’t imagine it going the way I now think it is going.
Many other clues were less obviously there, and I simply missed them. Because I always looked at the relationship from John Paul’s point of view. And he was just recreating his first relationship, only with someone he COULD have. Turns out Kieron was doing exactly the same.

A few questions which helped me see “it”. Based on the little information we do have on Kieron:

- We know that Kieron has a “dark past”. But does this mean he was a victim or a perpetrator? Kieron is generally considered a good guy, by everyone in Hollyoaks as well as by fans. We’ve seen him do good. We haven’t seen him do anything ostensibly wrong. A victim then. But Hollyoaks has made it clear in recent episodes that victims are at risk of becoming perpetrators. Are there clues that Kieron is at risk of becoming a perpetrator? And are there clues as to which type of abuse he might have been the victim of?

- We know Kieron is/was a Catholic priest. Hollyoaks often does storylines mimicking real life events that have made important headlines, often including heavyhanded ethical questions, or mental illness, or abuse (Jack’s faked death is an example, the surrogacy plot, Newt’s illness, ). Which headlines have you read lately that involved catholic priests? And are there any clues as to why Kieron might have become a priest? Why his priesthood is important to him?

- We know Kieron is in a relationship with John Paul. People tend to end up in the same types of relationships, even if roles shift sometimes. Hollyoaks is clever in showing that as well. Myra kept falling for “bad lads” – good-for-nothings (all of her kids dads, starting with Niall’s dad who was an inmate, and even Leo). Craig kept getting cheated on, his mom got cheated by his dad, and then later he became a big cheater himself. John Paul tends to fall for men he can’t have, forbidden relationships in which he is a dirty little secret. What is Kieron’s pattern?

Four sets of clues I started looking for then:

1. Was Kieron just a victim or could he also become a perpetrator? Are there any clues whatsoever for the latter? Any at all?
2. What sets Kieron off? If his past was traumatic, have we seen triggers which make it come back, which make him emotional or angry?
3. What is the pattern of the relationship? How did these two get together? Who was interested first? Who did the chatting up? The chasing? What triggered fights? What were the motivations to be in this relationship?
4. And what do the dream sequences and juxtapositions that we all love Hollyoaks so much for, tell us?
5. Other random remarks by characters which stuck out.

[cakefan]

1. Victim or perpetrator?

- The recent episodes with Ste show that victims sometimes become abusers and that it is hard to stop the cycle. Kieron goes all pensive when Ste tells him he has’t been able to stop the cycle, not even when he thought had it all (the happy family).

- In the 28/3 episode Kieron runs by Kris and JP– Kris asks what he’s listening to on his iGod, attracting the viewers attention to it. For me it was the first clue that really caught my attention, because of the title of the song. For those who don’t know this (awesome) track by the Rolling Stones, the full lyrics of “Sympathy for the Devil” are here: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/rolling..._20117881.html and here is an excerpt that I find particularly interesting:
“But what’s confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
cause I’m in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I’ll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down”

Is this a warning that we should not take what we see at face value? Cops are in fact criminals (Calvin will become one), and sinners are saints… Can priests then also become sinners, or can they restrain their sinful urges? Also, as regards the “hope you guessed my name”: Missa reminded us that Kieron’s name was changed from Ciaran O’Dowd to Kieron Hobbs. Liz 83 found out that “Hob” is an old nickname for the devil : http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...stcount=247629) And Kieron/Ciaran means “Little Dark One” and was at one point in history considered too holy for daily use as there was a Saint Kieron. Source: http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/c/ciaran.html. I know it looks a bit far-fetched but this is actually my favourite clue. It’s such a brilliant song.

- One more farfetched clue: on 28/4 Kieron comes over to Evissa to ask Niall out for a drink – Carmel thinks Niall shouldn’t go as he is turning his back on Louise who has just been taken to prison on suspicion of Sean’s murder. She shouts “JUDAS!”, right into the priest’s face, as Niall is already out of the door. The camera pauses on Kieron who raises his eyebrows. And Carmel of course specifies: “I was talking to him not you, Father.” Nice biblical reference though!

[Missa]

Originally Posted by suzka

I used to ship Hannah and Gilly - way back at her 18th birthday. But they delayed that game so much, I can't be asked now. I don't think Gilly is good enough for Hannah. I would rather see her end up with Elliot. imo

That's sort of the way I feel. There WAS a brief flash again during the Rhys/Beth reveal, but then they once again went off into a stupid Danny tangent. And yes, in a curious way, I too feel Hannah is too good for Gilly now - gosh he doesn't seem to actually be capable of DOING much!


marrow I so agree, JP away from Kieron, is a very level-headed, smart young man. He and Craig will actually do very well, stay grounded, connected to family, and have a great life together. As for Kieron, I foresee a traumatic, troubled, dark few weeks, when people are FINALLY shocked by him, those who never batted an eyelid at his"defrocking", before the sticky end. Fortunately, I can't see JP too grief-stricken, just horrified at how little Kieron and he had actually "known" each other. "I hardly KNOW you." Yes, indeed, JP!

[marrow]

Originally Posted by suzka

I used to ship Hannah and Gilly - way back at her 18th birthday. But they delayed that game so much, I can't be asked now. I don't think Gilly is good enough for Hannah. I would rather see her end up with Elliot. imo

perhaps it's on account I don't actively "ship" Hannah/Gilly that I'm not over them as a potential couple? I just see that they make sense together, and would be good for each other.

[cakefan]

4. Opening and dream sequences: These are al key episodes which I recommend you to watch. I know this is only part four but it is such a fun part. The most fun part, IMO. So I post this first, before I go looking for patterns

11/3: Opening sequence: Kieron’s prayer, intersecting with JP sleeping in fetal position, (and baby Charlie who’s in hospital). Here’s the words of the prayer: “Lord Jesus, you who did suffer in agony in the garden, and who scourged with a crown of thorns, you who placed the children on your knee and called for them to suffer not and who has placed hands of comfort on those who mourn, whose hearts are full of sorrow and whose souls are in torment. I kneel before thy presence and beg for thy intercession, in this, my hour of torment and temptation. Let this cup pass me by. Lead me not into temptation. Deliver me from my thoughts and the desires of my heart. Amen”

One sentence does not seem to fit. Or does it? And if Kieron so forcefully prays to be delivered from temptation, why is it that already at the breakfast table he is touching John Paul’s hands, and continues to woe him throughout the episode? Is John Paul the temptation? Or a means to resist temptation?

26/3: Daydream sequence at the start with interesting juxtaposition. Halfsiblings Beth and Rhys want each other. Tina wants her brother in law Russ. And Kieron wants John Paul.

28/3: With Bowie singing “Let the children boogie” in the background (Full lyrics of Starman: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/david+b..._20036916.html) in the background, JP is dreaming of Kieron in his bed and kisses him on the forehead. In actual life we later see only Kieron kissing JP on the forehead.

1/4: Another interesting opening sequence in terms of juxtaposition. We see university lecturer Roger Kiddle getting it on with student Sarah and Father Kieron getting it on with student John Paul. (And Lauren & Newt fooling Elliot).

2/4: Next day: opening sequence with more juxtaposition – Sarah, Newt and JP looking at their own reflections. In this episode Sarah finds out that Roger has taken her for a ride, Lauren’s first words to Newt “What do you mean I talked you into it?” And JP has second thoughts about being with Kieron

22/5: The famous opening sequence with Michaela’s article: “Catholic priest two-times teenage boy with transvestite” – first comes all the stuff about money can’t buy you love or happiness and it is said that money is the root of all evil. She then asks: “But maybe they’ve got it wrong. Maybe it’s the love that is the root of all evil”

15/7 Opening/dream sequence which is very subtle – Kris dreams that his father is caressing his forehead. Myra caresses JP’s forehead while he’s sleeping. Later on in the episode John Paul tells Kieron that he dreamt of Kieron caressing his forehead.

[nazahm87]

Keep it coming katryn Loving it x

[Francy]

Wow, Katryn!! Keep the coming!

[sjk1986]

Please do!

[Missa]

You're on FIRE, Katryn! Brava!

Those who say this has been shoddily written, or a bad SL or boring or Kieron was a plot device (including me till last week! ) should really LOOK at these abundant clues throughout! It's all BEEN there!! This is one of HO's BEST and SUBTLEST of 2008!

[Nowhere Man]

Originally Posted by nazahm87

Is it wrong that I actually PMSL when JT cried...?



And you guys who dislike Gilly - SHAME ON YOU! he is adorable, and he would make Hannah so happy and treat her well and not either sleep with Mercedes or fall in love with Craig while he's with her (although I can't say I'd blame him for falling in love with Craig...who could resist eh?)

Right, this is going to sound SO wrong but erm...I would pay good money to see a snog between Craig and Darren

*runs away*

Sorry Naz, but Gilly just bugs me! He always has. Plus he was a right prat with the whole Simon thing anyway.

As wrong as it may seem, a Craig/Darren snog would be hot - because they're both hot - but still wrong!

Originally Posted by nazahm87

Well yes of course Kris and Darren MUST happen (you hear that BK? You hear me? I know you lurk here...GIVE US DARRIS NOW!) but um...my top lookers on HO are Craig and Darren (and JP) and it would be...wrong but...hot

Craig's lips can have JP...and they will

If we're basing the Craig/Darren thing on nothing more than you fancying them, then I fancy Rhys, so I want some Craig/Rhys/JP action! That'd make Sarah's day, JP getting to pound both her ex's!

Originally Posted by suzka

I used to ship Hannah and Gilly - way back at her 18th birthday. But they delayed that game so much, I can't be asked now. I don't think Gilly is good enough for Hannah. I would rather see her end up with Elliot. imo

Yeah, I'm not bothered with Hannah/Gilly either - though I never used to ship them anyway *shrugs* I think I could get on board with Hannah/Elliot though, but that's apparently not to be.

[sjk1986]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man

Sorry Naz, but Gilly just bugs me! He always has. Plus he was a right prat with the whole Simon thing anyway.

As wrong as it may seem, a Craig/Darren snog would be hot - because they're both hot - but still wrong!

If we're basing the Craig/Darren thing on nothing more than you fancying them, then I fancy Rhys, so I want some Craig/Rhys/JP action! That'd make Sarah's day, JP getting to pound both her ex's!

Yeah, I'm not bothered with Hannah/Gilly either - though I never used to ship them anyway *shrugs* I think I could get on board with Hannah/Elliot though, but that's apparently not to be.

I've already told naz how evil she is

Urgh, get the images out of my head now of all those other ships,ergh, not impressed!

[Nowhere Man]

Originally Posted by Missa

You're on FIRE, Katryn! Brava!

Those who say this has been shoddily written, or a bad SL or boring or Kieron was a plot device (including me till last week! ) should really LOOK at these abundant clues throughout! It's all BEEN there!! This is one of HO's BEST and SUBTLEST of 2008!

Hmm, sorry guys, I know a lot of you come out with some amazing ideas, theories and posts on all of this - and they really are very good and interesting - but to me, having John Paul shag a priest will always be a bad storyline, because in my opinion that storyline for that character is just wrong, and crap! Sorry.

[Francy]

Originally Posted by Missa

You're on FIRE, Katryn! Brava!

Those who say this has been shoddily written, or a bad SL or boring or Kieron was a plot device (including me till last week! ) should really LOOK at these abundant clues throughout! It's all BEEN there!! This is one of HO's BEST and SUBTLEST of 2008!

I think that when the sl is over, it will be clear it was well conceived, and probably well written. The problem for me is that I still don't like it, I'm afraid...never will! But they can't always please anyone, can they?

EDIT: Totally with you, Benjy!

[nazahm87]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man

Sorry Naz, but Gilly just bugs me! He always has. Plus he was a right prat with the whole Simon thing anyway.

As wrong as it may seem, a Craig/Darren snog would be hot - because they're both hot - but still wrong!

If we're basing the Craig/Darren thing on nothing more than you fancying them, then I fancy Rhys, so I want some Craig/Rhys/JP action! That'd make Sarah's day, JP getting to pound both her ex's!

Yeah, I'm not bothered with Hannah/Gilly either - though I never used to ship them anyway *shrugs* I think I could get on board with Hannah/Elliot though, but that's apparently not to be.

*creams self*



As for the Simon thing - he was pointless, what was the point of him exactly? and also I'm sure Gilly wanted to be safe rather than sorry as something like paedophilia is not to be taken lightly!

In addition - as much as I adore *cough*wanttoshag*cough* Rhys, what he put Gilly through with Beth (eughhhhh hated that cow ) was plain awful and he should count himself lucky that Gilly is good enough to forgive him and try to put things back on track.

It takes a good person to ask for forgiveness, but an even greater person to forgive.

[marrow]

Katryn, can I just say, that's awesome of you. Really. You didn't just let someone(s) convince you of something with a compelling argument, but you actually went back to the text, yourself, to see if there was something you had missed out on. Good show, old chap!

might I suggest you post your findings on the Aww Thread, as well? LMAO - kidding!

[Missa]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man

Hmm, sorry guys, I know a lot of you come out with some amazing ideas, theories and posts on all of this - and they really are very good and interesting - but to me, having John Paul shag a priest will always be a bad storyline, because in my opinion that storyline for that character is just wrong, and crap! Sorry.

Originally Posted by Francy

I think that when the sl is over, it will be clear it was well conceived, and probably well written. The problem for me is that I still don't like it, I'm afraid...never will! But they can't always please anyone, can they?

EDIT: Totally with you, Benjy!

Sorry, Ben, Francy I think I got carried away. I am finding this story quite, quite cleverly written, and having a good time anticipating the explosive ending. That does not mean that you guys and others, have to like it! I'll try to contain my excitement a bit more in the future!

Originally Posted by marrow

Katryn, can I just say, that's awesome of you. Really. You didn't just let someone(s) convince you of something with a compelling argument, but you actually went back to the text, yourself, to see if there was something you had missed out on. Good show, old chap!

might I suggest you post your findings on the Aww Thread, as well? LMAO - kidding!

Word! That's why this is such a fun place sometimes!
EDIT It's also amazing for me that Katryn has actually gone back to all the episodes again. I am waiting till after everything's ended to do that! Right now, I am just so disturbed by JP being with this..... person!

[Nowhere Man]

Originally Posted by nazahm87

*creams self*



As for the Simon thing - he was pointless, what was the point of him exactly? and also I'm sure Gilly wanted to be safe rather than sorry as something like paedophilia is not to be taken lightly!

In addition - as much as I adore *cough*wanttoshag*cough* Rhys, what he put Gilly through with Beth (eughhhhh hated that cow ) was plain awful and he should count himself lucky that Gilly is good enough to forgive him and try to put things back on track.

It takes a good person to ask for forgiveness, but an even greater person to forgive.

Yeah, I got the thing with better to be safe than sorry over Simon and all that... but still, he wasn't sure, so going all mob mentality about it was hardly the best way, and Simon already had a shit life that they totally screwed over some more by jumping in without thinking it through properly. Tough situation to be in, but still not the best way to go about it IMO.

And yeah, Rhys was a shit to Gilly, and Gilly has forgiven him which is big of him... but Gilly still bugs me, and I still wanna shag... err, like Rhys!

As for "creaming yourself" over the thought of Craig/Rhys/JP - you know you want to write it now, Naz!

[Francy]

Originally Posted by Missa

Sorry, Ben, Francy I think I got carried away. I am finding this story quite, quite cleverly written, and having a good time anticipating the explosive ending. That does not mean that you guys and others, have to like it! I'll try to contain my excitement a bit more in the future!

You don't have to apologize, silly! Why are you apologizing? Burst with excitement as much as you want, I'm glad you are enjoying the storyline!

[Nowhere Man]

Originally Posted by Missa

Sorry, Ben, Francy I think I got carried away. I am finding this story quite, quite cleverly written, and having a good time anticipating the explosive ending. That does not mean that you guys and others, have to like it! I'll try to contain my excitement a bit more in the future!


Word! That's why this is such a fun place sometimes!

What're you apologising for? You know there's no need! You get as excited and enthusiastic about it as you like, and post about that as much as you want.

I was just throwing out there that personally I'll never like them having John Paul shag a priest, because in my opinion it's a rubbish and crap idea for the character.

Don't let it stop you sharing your enthusiasm for it all though. Good for you if you like it!

Edit - What Francy said!

[nazahm87]

Originally Posted by Nowhere Man

Yeah, I got the thing with better to be safe than sorry over Simon and all that... but still, he wasn't sure, so going all mob mentality about it was hardly the best way, and Simon already had a shit life that they totally screwed over some more by jumping in without thinking it through properly. Tough situation to be in, but still not the best way to go about it IMO.

And yeah, Rhys was a shit to Gilly, and Gilly has forgiven him which is big of him... but Gilly still bugs me, and I still wanna shag... err, like Rhys!

As for "creaming yourself" over the thought of Craig/Rhys/JP - you know you want to write it now, Naz!

Oh don't even tempt me to write it cos I will and I already have enough hassle from my 'Love Vs Lust' readers over on FH to update! I've just hardly had time to type it up, I'm really fussy when it comes to my chapters I always like them to be perfect thing is...how do I break it to them that I'm going away for a week and there will probably be no update until the 14th of August....?

Oh god. I can't resist the smut that I could write for Rhys/Craig/JP

*must control self*

EDIT: I adore the hassle and enthusiasm for my fic, just realised I sounded truly ungrateful....and I'm not lol

[sjk1986]

Originally Posted by nazahm87

Oh don't even tempt me to write it cos I will and I already have enough hassle from my 'Love Vs Lust' readers over on FH to update! I've just hardly had time to type it up, I'm really fussy when it comes to my chapters I always like them to be perfect thing is...how do I break it to them that I'm going away for a week and there will probably be no update until the 14th of August....?

Oh god. I can't resist the smut that I could write for Rhys/Craig/JP

*must control self*

I'll believe that when I see it!

I haven't forgotten the horrific images you put in my head yesterday!

[cjpuddytat]

15 minutes left to vote in the National TV Awards 2008!!

Get your last minute votes in NOW!!

http://www.nationaltvawards.com/


VOTE JAMES, BARRY, AND HOLLYOAKS!!

They MUST win!!

lol soz but i REALLY want justice for these guys this year! Sure you all do too, get everyone you know with an email address to vote now!

*end of plug*

[Flukie]

Sarah & Elliot as a couple ....

It was only funny when he was pining after her, the fact she wasn't interested in him was realistic, cos I'm sorry, but no girl like Sarah would get the hots for someone like Elliot. They'd be mates, yes, but no more than that.

When he appeared for his date with his flattened down hair with the perfect parting and that anorak ... I must admit I cringed a bit cos he looked so ..... boring!

And it's just impossible to imagine Sarah fancying someone like that after she's had Craig! For all that they were totally mismatched, he WAS the sort of bloke she'd go for ...and of course after him was that lecturer bloke ... and even Rhys .... You can see Sarah fancying these blokes, but someone like Elliot ... never. Frankly, I found tonights scenes with them an ebarrassment to watch!

I know in soaps with young adults in them, they're all paired off with each other one time or another, and I can only imagine they've run out of men for Sarah if they've gone this route!
I assume it's a shortlived thing, but can you imagine if she was still seeing Elliot when Craig got back? I mean he was gorgeous before, but put him as he looks when he goes back ... next to Elliot ... and tell someone this is Sarah's ex and her present boyfriend ... they'd never believe it! lol!

And the inferiority complex it would give Elliot would be massive! lol.

[cjpuddytat]

[quote=Flukie;26239318]I assume it's a shortlived thing, but can you imagine if she was still seeing Elliot when Craig got back? I mean he was gorgeous before, but put him as he looks when he goes back ... next to Elliot ... and tell someone this is Sarah's ex and her present boyfriend ... they'd never believe it! lol! [quote]

I'm sure they'd believe it if they saw Craig's tongue down JP's throat

[Flukie]

Next week in the TV mags it says that after Newt says he killed Jack, Darren panics when Frankie says she wants Jack's body exhumed.

I'm sorry, but how realistic is that, that the grieving widow gets an exhumation just cos it's what she wants?!

Obviously they realise Newt is sick so it never happens, but just that sentence seemed totally unrealistic to me, that Darren would panic just cos it was what Frankie wanted. I don't think it's up to her!