The Undercover Soldier - TV Programmes

aerialplug · 18-09-2008, 21:31

Did anyone else notice that close to the beginning of the programme, the platoon that "couldn't be named for legal reasons" was asterixed out on the subtitles, but they forgot to bleep the audio - it was quite clear what the platoon's name was...

In subsequent scenes it was both bleeped and asterixed out - but I guess a bit pointless really as the cat is out of the bag now.

ElMarko · 18-09-2008, 21:59

Who was it!?

aerialplug · 18-09-2008, 22:12

The aterixed out word (and also relatively easy to lipread in subsequent scenes) was The Rifles.

ElMarko · 18-09-2008, 22:54

Has anyone read the army rumour forum, ARRSE?

As I predicted, a bunch of meat-headed Tory voters are shitting all over this documentary, calling the reporter a "ponce" and various other bits of liberal-bashing.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...start=180.html

And so on. While I'm not so completely stupid as to say that the army is full of people like that (I've met some VERY intelligent army personnel) it's quite clear that some people on there have absolutely no idea about the issues they are debating.

Master Logic · 18-09-2008, 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerialplug

The aterixed out word (and also relatively easy to lipread in subsequent scenes) was *** ******.

Oh well if that was the name and there are legal reasons for not mentioning it, you have just blown that one!

Master Logic · 18-09-2008, 23:02

I did my TA training at Catterick barracks and whilst they were about as pleasant as pick axe in the head, I was never bullied.

There constant idea of "negative reinforcement" was wasted on me as I respond far better to positive reinforcement, but that isn't on the menu. The game for someone like me was to get through the training as no matter what as their game was to make people like me walk. (Using Negative reinforcement, not bullying)

I won! - God knows how, but I won!

Lyndonb9 · 19-09-2008, 10:52

What a truly dreadful programme this was. For a journalist he really did rely far to heavily on the accounts of what these young soldiers said and pretty much NO evidence to back their claims up. I can only imagine that these young men embelish their stories as they tell them to their colleagues as a form of bravado - To use this as evidence of regular beatings and bullying is a joke.

I am not a big advocate of war or our country being part of an illegal one BUT if we are sending our boys out there they need to be prepared for the reality - That war is ugly and their lifes are very much on the line. The enemy is out there to kill them, not give them a kick if they leave their loaded gun on the floor. The risks and threat on tour is obviously far higher and these guys need to be prepared for that.

And can somebody tell me - Is the BBC going to refund the Army for the thousands of pounds that it probably took to train up this young 'jouranlist'? I am sure it could have been better spent on somebody who was actually going to go out there and risk their lives for our protection - illegal war or not!

Argh - Perhaps the BBC should investigate the inner workings of bullying within its own organisation before it starts pointing the finger at others!

Inspiration · 19-09-2008, 11:46

Yep I heard the name too. The first two or three times he said it they didn't bleep it out. I kept thinking to myself "Did I really just hear that or was it a bleep".

Personally I'm not sure what to make of the programme. The bit where some guy was complaining about being hit by an officer and then the undercover guy found out that the guy who was assaulted had mouthed off to the officer and hit him. What did he expect? A note to his parents? Detention?

AcornAntique · 19-09-2008, 11:55

No hard evidence for the alleged 'incidents' was presented, just poor quality clips of jack the lads telling tall tales. These undercover reports are always a load of rubbish.

Catterick is not for sympathetic types or the faint hearted, neither is the army. Nuff said.

Perhaps the reporter should apply to do social work next time?

ElMarko · 19-09-2008, 12:17

For God's sake, why are people unable to tell the difference between actual positive/negative conditioning and assault?

Yes, it's the army, yes, it's tough, but no, you shouldn't be allowed to show blatant disregard for the rules.

Cyberninja · 19-09-2008, 12:55

When my dad was in training at Catterick years and years ago he said that regular batterings from instructors was the norm and there would often be out and out brawls between instructors and trainees. Fights would be allowed to go on as long as they had to whether the instructor had the upper hand or not.

I don't agree with bullying as part of training but cadets need to be prepared for the rigours of war, molly coddling them during training will do them no favours when they are out in the field.

ElMarko · 19-09-2008, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyberninja

When my dad was in training at Catterick years and years ago he said that regular batterings from instructors was the norm and there would often be out and out brawls between instructors and trainees. Fights would be allowed to go on as long as they had to whether the instructor had the upper hand or not.

I don't agree with bullying as part of training but cadets need to be prepared for the rigours of war, molly coddling them during training will do them no favours when they are out in the field.

See, what you've said there is a perfect example of what SHOULDN'T go on.

The people signing up know what they are getting into. They don't need to have to go through that. The army is a professional establishment (supposedly), not some crazy lawless school.

myss · 19-09-2008, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcornAntique

No hard evidence for the alleged 'incidents' was presented, just poor quality clips of jack the lads telling tall tales. These undercover reports are always a load of rubbish.

Catterick is not for sympathetic types or the faint hearted, neither is the army. Nuff said.

Perhaps the reporter should apply to do social work next time?

Fully agree. I admit to only watching bits of it whilst studying last night but what I did see gave me the gist of the so-called documentary. Couldn't help feeling that some who gave their tale to the 'hidden' camera may have twigged what he was doing but not as an 'undercover expose'.
I hate bullying and people who abuse or show-off their power but I have had scarier moments on the lav than what was shown on that programme tbh.

Cyberninja · 19-09-2008, 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElMarko

See, what you've said there is a perfect example of what SHOULDN'T go on.

The people signing up know what they are getting into. They don't need to have to go through that. The army is a professional establishment (supposedly), not some crazy lawless school.

Thats rubbish.

My dad said if the training hadn't been as hard as it was he wouldn't have been able to cope physically or mentally with being on tour in Northern Ireland for years. I don't agree with bullying but a quick slap to the chops or kick to the shins if you mess up during training is nothing. All those recruits complaining about being pushed and shoved by their instructors in the documentary won't last five minutes in Iraq or Afghanistan. The vast majority of army training is to gear you up physically and mentally for the main reason you are a soldier, to protect and to kill.

Glaston · 19-09-2008, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElMarko

The army is a professional establishment (supposedly), not some crazy lawless school.

What do you think the hills/valleys/bombs and death in Afghanistan is but a crazy lawless school?

Yep, real bullying should be stopped but being all touchy feely about the training of soldiers facing death in the field will get them killed.

If 100 punches in the face in Catterick save one life in Afganistan is that not worth it?

ayrshireman · 19-09-2008, 16:25

El Marko:

Perhaps the people on AARSE*(and I am registered with them btw and most there are good guys and highly intelligent) feel that this programme from the BBC is again less of a public service and more of a 'shock doc' just to get ratings.

We had the police one a couple of years ago, now this. Perhaps some feel cynically that its the BBC playing politically correct social worker by tv and having a dig yet again a 'traditional institution' (police, army), institutions which by their very nature are far removed from the touchy feely culture of the 'meedja'.

Programmes like this always tend to remind me of middle class social workers who work in rough neighbourhoods, having never seen such a culture before, and everything to them is oh-so loud and violent and dirty and completely beyond their social and cultural reference points.

*---anyone can join the AARSE forum, you dont have to be military, current or ex, just have an interest in the history and make up of the army, or if you have some questions about joining up.

goldenhair · 19-09-2008, 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayrshireman

El Marko:

Perhaps the people on AARSE*(and I am registered with them btw and most there are good guys and highly intelligent) feel that this programme from the BBC is again less of a public service and more of a 'shock doc' just to get ratings.

We had the police one a couple of years ago, now this. Perhaps some feel cynically that its the BBC playing politically correct social worker by tv and having a dig yet again a 'traditional institution' (police, army), institutions which by their very nature are far removed from the touchy feely culture of the 'meedja'.

Programmes like this always tend to remind me of middle class social workers who work in rough neighbourhoods, having never seen such a culture before, and everything to them is oh-so loud and violent and dirty and completely beyond their social and cultural reference points.

*---anyone can join the AARSE forum, you dont have to be military, current or ex, just have an interest in the history and make up of the army, or if you have some questions about joining up.

Ayrshireman totally nailing it there....

I think Elmarko, you're completely out of your depth.
I don't really expect anyone who hasn't served to understand the forces but you seem to have a complete political bias which makes your personal views lack credibility. I don't remember too many political debates I had in the army, we were just glad of a job back then in the 80's...or maybe I should be blaming the tories for that.

Strangely enough I now work in the liberal medium of television and guess what.. that has its fair share of rotten apples as well only they attack you from behind your back.

myss · 19-09-2008, 19:13

ARRSE not AARSE! Fellow member here too

and tempted to put this link on there but feel the backlash may be very very harsh.
If El Marko feel that strongly about the subject knowledge, I suggest reading the comments via the link he posted above and as Ayrshireman suggests, joining there to make the comments made above - especially the one calling them 'a bunch of meat headed Tory voters'.

ElMarko · 19-09-2008, 19:17

I read ARRSE.

It seemed to consist of pages and pages of squaddies calling the journalist a "ponsy liberal".

Classy.

Pizzatheaction · 20-09-2008, 12:44

I'm surprised the heating in the barracks wasn't working! If you're out training hard all day, the least you deserve is a warm bed at night!

18-09-2008, 21:31	#1
aerialplug Forum Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 739	The Undercover Soldier Did anyone else notice that close to the beginning of the programme, the platoon that "couldn't be named for legal reasons" was asterixed out on the subtitles, but they forgot to bleep the audio - it was quite clear what the platoon's name was... In subsequent scenes it was both bleeped and asterixed out - but I guess a bit pointless really as the cat is out of the bag now.

18-09-2008, 21:59	#2
ElMarko Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Blackpool Services: Virgin TV/Net/Phone, OSX/Linux/XP (For games) Posts: 3,815	Who was it!?

18-09-2008, 22:12	#3
aerialplug Forum Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 739	The aterixed out word (and also relatively easy to lipread in subsequent scenes) was The Rifles.

18-09-2008, 22:54	#4
ElMarko Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Blackpool Services: Virgin TV/Net/Phone, OSX/Linux/XP (For games) Posts: 3,815	Has anyone read the army rumour forum, ARRSE? As I predicted, a bunch of meat-headed Tory voters are shitting all over this documentary, calling the reporter a "ponce" and various other bits of liberal-bashing. http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...start=180.html And so on. While I'm not so completely stupid as to say that the army is full of people like that (I've met some VERY intelligent army personnel) it's quite clear that some people on there have absolutely no idea about the issues they are debating.

18-09-2008, 23:02	#6
Master Logic Inactive Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,372	I did my TA training at Catterick barracks and whilst they were about as pleasant as pick axe in the head, I was never bullied. There constant idea of "negative reinforcement" was wasted on me as I respond far better to positive reinforcement, but that isn't on the menu. The game for someone like me was to get through the training as no matter what as their game was to make people like me walk. (Using Negative reinforcement, not bullying) I won! - God knows how, but I won!

19-09-2008, 10:52	#7
Lyndonb9 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Scotland Services: Sky, Virgin Net Sometimes 5Mb then again usually 4Mb Posts: 60	What a truly dreadful programme this was. For a journalist he really did rely far to heavily on the accounts of what these young soldiers said and pretty much NO evidence to back their claims up. I can only imagine that these young men embelish their stories as they tell them to their colleagues as a form of bravado - To use this as evidence of regular beatings and bullying is a joke. I am not a big advocate of war or our country being part of an illegal one BUT if we are sending our boys out there they need to be prepared for the reality - That war is ugly and their lifes are very much on the line. The enemy is out there to kill them, not give them a kick if they leave their loaded gun on the floor. The risks and threat on tour is obviously far higher and these guys need to be prepared for that. And can somebody tell me - Is the BBC going to refund the Army for the thousands of pounds that it probably took to train up this young 'jouranlist'? I am sure it could have been better spent on somebody who was actually going to go out there and risk their lives for our protection - illegal war or not! Argh - Perhaps the BBC should investigate the inner workings of bullying within its own organisation before it starts pointing the finger at others!

19-09-2008, 11:46	#8
Inspiration Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 19,886	Yep I heard the name too. The first two or three times he said it they didn't bleep it out. I kept thinking to myself "Did I really just hear that or was it a bleep". Personally I'm not sure what to make of the programme. The bit where some guy was complaining about being hit by an officer and then the undercover guy found out that the guy who was assaulted had mouthed off to the officer and hit him. What did he expect? A note to his parents? Detention?

19-09-2008, 11:55	#9
AcornAntique Inactive Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,757	No hard evidence for the alleged 'incidents' was presented, just poor quality clips of jack the lads telling tall tales. These undercover reports are always a load of rubbish. Catterick is not for sympathetic types or the faint hearted, neither is the army. Nuff said. Perhaps the reporter should apply to do social work next time?

19-09-2008, 12:17	#10
ElMarko Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Blackpool Services: Virgin TV/Net/Phone, OSX/Linux/XP (For games) Posts: 3,815	For God's sake, why are people unable to tell the difference between actual positive/negative conditioning and assault? Yes, it's the army, yes, it's tough, but no, you shouldn't be allowed to show blatant disregard for the rules.

19-09-2008, 12:55	#11
Cyberninja Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Mordor Services: Sky+, Virgin broadband Posts: 1,410	When my dad was in training at Catterick years and years ago he said that regular batterings from instructors was the norm and there would often be out and out brawls between instructors and trainees. Fights would be allowed to go on as long as they had to whether the instructor had the upper hand or not. I don't agree with bullying as part of training but cadets need to be prepared for the rigours of war, molly coddling them during training will do them no favours when they are out in the field.

19-09-2008, 16:25	#16
ayrshireman Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 7,475	El Marko: Perhaps the people on AARSE(and I am registered with them btw and most there are good guys and highly intelligent) feel that this programme from the BBC is again less of a public service and more of a 'shock doc' just to get ratings. We had the police one a couple of years ago, now this. Perhaps some feel cynically that its the BBC playing politically correct social worker by tv and having a dig yet again a 'traditional institution' (police, army), institutions which by their very nature are far removed from the touchy feely culture of the 'meedja'. Programmes like this always tend to remind me of middle class social workers who work in rough neighbourhoods, having never seen such a culture before, and everything to them is oh-so loud and violent and dirty and completely beyond their social and cultural reference points. ---anyone can join the AARSE forum, you dont have to be military, current or ex, just have an interest in the history and make up of the army, or if you have some questions about joining up.

19-09-2008, 19:13	#18
myss Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Londonia :o> Posts: 3,241	ARRSE not AARSE! Fellow member here too and tempted to put this link on there but feel the backlash may be very very harsh. If El Marko feel that strongly about the subject knowledge, I suggest reading the comments via the link he posted above and as Ayrshireman suggests, joining there to make the comments made above - especially the one calling them 'a bunch of meat headed Tory voters'.

19-09-2008, 19:17	#19
ElMarko Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Blackpool Services: Virgin TV/Net/Phone, OSX/Linux/XP (For games) Posts: 3,815	I read ARRSE. It seemed to consist of pages and pages of squaddies calling the journalist a "ponsy liberal". Classy.

20-09-2008, 12:44	#20
Pizzatheaction Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Services: DTT Posts: 4,829 Blog Entries: 2	I'm surprised the heating in the barracks wasn't working! If you're out training hard all day, the least you deserve is a warm bed at night!