[Patentia]

I'm sure this has been discussed at length so perhaps there's a simple answer.
(Within a month we are expecting our Sky+HD box - yay!)

We have a mighty fine Panasonic Viera LZD80 and is hooked up with our Sky+ box. Apart from the DVDs played through the TV, any broadcasted CGI animation really shows off how good HD could be.

So imagine my concern as I was checking out the Sky+HD box in a showroom today, on a Philips LCD HDTV, to find that the quality did not show much improvement!

Would you say it's due to the TV, the showroom HD box, or that I'm supposed to watch HD in fantastic slow motion just like on the ads?

[derek500]

Originally Posted by Patentia

So imagine my concern as I was checking out the Sky+HD box in a showroom today, on a Philips LCD HDTV, to find that the quality did not show much improvement!

What did you watch in the showroom?

[seancanderson]

I also have a Panasonic Viera (I think it might be the same model, but not sure) and Sky+HD picture is stunning. I can definitely see the difference. Think of how good SD CGI animation looks and multiply it by ten: you can see virtual hairs as if they are lifelike.

Other things really benefit too. There is certainly a difference.

It might not look as good in the showroom for several reasons:

- They never look as good in the showroom because you're generally closer to the screens than in your living room.

- The settings might not be correct.

- The TV might not be very good

[ALanJ]

Originally Posted by Patentia

Would you say it's due to the TV, the showroom HD box, or that I'm supposed to watch HD in fantastic slow motion just like on the ads?

Are you talking about the HD output of the SD output?

The quality will vary depending on the TV (especially the SD picture quality).

[Patentia]

Originally Posted by ALanJ

Are you talking about the HD output of the SD output?

The quality will vary depending on the TV (especially the SD picture quality).

This was in Dixons, so I'm assuming their Sky+HD stand should be set up to full spec. (i.e. HD output - the box - thru HDTV). I was looking at all the available HD channels and the MTV HD one happened to have a video which I know inside out, I just thought, 'meh'.

I've also watched SD output on a V+ box on a Loewe TV and you cannot fault the Loewe quality. My Panasonic pales in comparison so I'm really hoping that the HD box will blow the Loewe out of the water.

Having said that as I strolled through the showroom, all the TVs looked lovely which makes me think of some 'insider' knowledge: The screens are made by one company and it's the brand company (Sony, Samsung etc.) that make the screen it's own with their type of electronics.

[derek500]

Originally Posted by Patentia

I was looking at all the available HD channels and the MTV HD one happened to have a video which I know inside out, I just thought, 'meh'.

Not many of the videos on MTV HD are native HD.

[anthony47]

Originally Posted by Patentia

I'm sure this has been discussed at length so perhaps there's a simple answer.
(Within a month we are expecting our Sky+HD box - yay!)

We have a mighty fine Panasonic Viera LZD80 and is hooked up with our Sky+ box. Apart from the DVDs played through the TV, any broadcasted CGI animation really shows off how good HD could be.

So imagine my concern as I was checking out the Sky+HD box in a showroom today, on a Philips
LCD HDTV, to find that the quality did not show much improvement!

Would you say it's due to the TV, the showroom HD box, or that I'm supposed to watch HD in fantastic slow motion just like on the ads?

I had the Samsung HD box installed two weeks ago and was bowled over by the quality of both the HD and SD picture on my 40ins Samsung LCD.

Imagine my surprise today when I re-set my picture using the BBC test card (see the thread in this forum) and using the instructions from the BBC man's blog. My picture quality must have improved another 30 or 40%, truly stunning improvement to a picture I was already very happy with.

You can easily record the BBC test card, just see my tip in the test card thread.

[Zincubus]

Is it really worth the extra expense of £10 per month plus the box plus fitting ??

There only appears to be a few channels I would bother with .

I love SPORT and DOCUMENTARIES and MOVIES .

[Jarrak]

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Is it really worth the extra expense of £10 per month plus the box plus fitting ??

There only appears to be a few channels I would bother with .

I love SPORT and DOCUMENTARIES and MOVIES .

You just named the three most important HD genres provided by SKY HD
Rugby, Cricket, Footy, Golf and other HD sporting events really do raise the PQ bar when compared to the SD channels, Docs are produced to be as accurate as possible so again tend to look magnificent in HD. Movies by far the biggest source of HD content globally can provide true reference quality material but productions choices in an artistic or stylised method does negate the benefits of HD but if you accept all detail is good you won't be disappointed.

If you already have SKY Sports and Movies and the Knowledge MIX and enjoy the content then adding HD is a no-brainer.

[Jarrak]

Originally Posted by anthony47

Imagine my surprise today when I re-set my picture using the BBC test card (see the thread in this forum) and using the instructions from the BBC man's blog. My picture quality must have improved another 30 or 40%, truly stunning improvement to a picture I was already very happy with.

You can easily record the BBC test card, just see my tip in the test card thread.

Excellent point.
HD setup is far more critical than it every was for SD sources regardless of the type of display you are using and also easy to forget most modern TV's allows individual settings for each AV input allowing the TV to maximise SD and HD sources.

[grimsbyseagulls]

Originally Posted by Patentia

This was in Dixons, so I'm assuming their Sky+HD stand should be set up to full spec. (i.e. HD output - the box - thru HDTV). I was looking at all the available HD channels and the MTV HD one happened to have a video which I know inside out, I just thought, 'meh'.

Although the Sky+HD box may have been connected to the TV via HDMI they might not have adjusted the settings on the TV menu to optimise the picture To get an idea of what the picture should look like you would need to go to a retailer of AV equipment with expertise of calibrating the picture rather than just using the default option as it comes out of the packaging. Then you will see a difference , knowing Dixons they could have been connecting the box to the TV via scart.

[simonk243]

I got Sky+HD installed on Friday. I am quite dissapointed to be honest after all the Hype about HD. Apart from the odd show, me and my partner can barely see any difference

I have also had problems with recording the first few shows I Sky+ came up as Programme interrupted and the same on the Sky+ boxed moved to the Bedroom. I spoke to Sky who said the cards weren't paired to the box, I can record now but I still can't access recordings on the Original box

So really not a good start

[anniebrion]

Originally Posted by simonk243

I got Sky+HD installed on Friday. I am quite dissapointed to be honest after all the Hype about HD. Apart from the odd show, me and my partner can barely see any difference

It's all to do with viewing distance. With HD you can sit much closer to the TV and still see detail. With SD you have to sit much further away or you can see the defects.

Try watching Sky1HD from 2 foot away then switch to Sky1 at 2 foot you should be able to see a huge difference (make sure the programme is true HD and not just upscaled).

[HDCriticalFan]

Originally Posted by simonk243

I am quite dissapointed to be honest after all the Hype about HD. Apart from the odd show, me and my partner can barely see any difference

And so it begins ...

I think that we are going to start seeing a lot more posts like this. Sky are now going with a message of hyperbole to "ordinary" viewers, promising them something "amazing".

The truth is, HD is a bit better than SD. For people like me, keen on PQ (geeks), it is a chance to improve our TV experience and well worth hundreds of pounds (thousands, if you count HD displays and good A/V amps and speakers).

For ordinary people it simply doesn't amaze them as much as the adverts suggest.

Though I find it hard to believe, many people :-

- do not calibrate their TVs (let alone get in an ISF expert to do it)
- do not dim the lights or close curtains to watch TV
- do not arrange their rooms to avoid reflections in the screen
- do not even watch TV exclusively (e.g. by chatting to someone at the same time)
- do not wear their spectacles (SWMBO, are you listening )


I can't understand why people who don't do any of the above think that HD is for them. If you truly care about PQ then you should do all of the above (which are free) and then you should consider an upgrade to HD for the additional benefit.





Regards

HDCriticalFan

I am a fan ... but I remain critical.

[simonk243]

Originally Posted by HDCriticalFan

And so it begins ...

I think that we are going to start seeing a lot more posts like this. Sky are now going with a message of hyperbole to "ordinary" viewers, promising them something "amazing".

The truth is, HD is a bit better than SD. For people like me, keen on PQ (geeks), it is a chance to improve our TV experience and well worth hundreds of pounds (thousands, if you count HD displays and good A/V amps and speakers).

For ordinary people it simply doesn't amaze them as much as the adverts suggest.

Though I find it hard to believe, many people :-

- do not calibrate their TVs (let alone get in an ISF expert to do it)
- do not dim the lights or close curtains to watch TV
- do not arrange their rooms to avoid reflections in the screen
- do not even watch TV exclusively (e.g. by chatting to someone at the same time)
- do not wear their spectacles (SWMBO, are you listening )


I can't understand why people who don't do any of the above think that HD is for them. If you truly care about PQ then you should do all of the above (which are free) and then you should consider an upgrade to HD for the additional benefit.





Regards

HDCriticalFan

I am a fan ... but I remain critical.

Hi what is
1:PQ
2: calibrate their TVs

[ALanJ]

Originally Posted by simonk243

Hi what is
1:PQ
2: calibrate their TVs

1) Picture Quality
2) calibration of your TV sets up the display so that a standard test pattern displays in a pre-defined manner.

[chrisw99]

Originally Posted by anniebrion

It's all to do with viewing distance. With HD you can sit much closer to the TV and still see detail. With SD you have to sit much further away or you can see the defects.

Try watching Sky1HD from 2 foot away then switch to Sky1 at 2 foot you should be able to see a huge difference (make sure the programme is true HD and not just upscaled).

Totally agree with this. I watch on a 37" plasma from about 9 feet away normally.

When watching HD I move the couch about 2 feet closer to really appreciate the difference.

[HDCriticalFan]

Originally Posted by chrisw99

Totally agree with this. I watch on a 37" plasma from about 9 feet away normally.

When watching HD I move the couch about 2 feet closer to really appreciate the difference.

I concur.

I tend to watch my 42 inch plasma from about 7-8 feet.




Regards

HDCriticalFan

I am a fan ... but I remain critical.

[xanadu]

Originally Posted by Patentia

This was in Dixons, so I'm assuming their Sky+HD stand should be set up to full spec. (i.e. HD output - the box - thru HDTV). I was looking at all the available HD channels and the MTV HD one happened to have a video which I know inside out, I just thought, 'meh'.

By any chance did they have a plasma nearby showing a better picture of anything at all?

Some retailers get more margin on Plasmas and sometimes make the plasma look better to draw your eyes.

No all retailers do this, our local currys have all the TVs set up the same and the local PCW has a section apart for the HD offerings, which looks pretty good

[SilverFox2]

Just a couple of things that your members may have opinions on but here is my two pennyworth anyway:-

There should be a big improvement between SD and HD on Sky because SD is sent to the TV via HDMI at 576p and not 576i as received by the box so not much can be done with this modified signal.
This deinterlacing by the Sky box is done in such an inefficient manner by the Sky box that it ensures proper upscaling by even a good scaler (eg Lumagen) will not work as well as it could.

Hence bad upscaled SD picture compared with the good HD picture (box sends at the received 1080i to TV, then your TV converts to 1080p).
If your TV deinterlaces this signal badly then perhaps comparatively bad HD picture displayed.

My follow on point is that if the original 576i signal could be deinterlaced as well as upscaled by an external scaler the difference between the SD and HD would be far less noticeable.

[albryc]

I have had HD for nearly 2 years and whilst we had a 32" Technosonic the picture was good on both SD and HD.
About 8 months ago we got a Philips 42" Plasma and to be honest being a fiddler and knowing what the picture should be like I was disappointed to the point where last week I saw a Toshiba LCD 42" and thought of changing the set.I changed the HDMI cable and it gave better contrast .Then someone posted the answer on here.
My HD box was always set from day one at 1080i and that the box controlled picture output.But to give the Philips a chance to redeem itself I decided to switch the box to automatic.The result is incredible and SD is now brilliant and the HD is superb.Why I had not cottoned on to this earlier I don't know but I suggest that's why these electrical stores have not got optimum picture quality.
Try it you have nothing to lose

[d'@ve]

Originally Posted by SilverFox2

There should be a big improvement between SD and HD on Sky because SD is sent to the TV via HDMI at 576p and not 576i as received by the box so not much can be done with this modified signal.

As others have said, only if you are prepared to move closer than most people sit from their TV. Most people simply aren't willing to do this, or don't care.

All this stuff about optimising the picture and letting the box or TV do the upscaling is really pretty pointless for the average viewer, based on where they sit and their attitude to TV.

But it's cool for videophile quality freaks, who will sit wherever the difference shows up best... a yard or two away in a 25 foot lounge, if needs be!

[SilverFox2]

Hi d'@ve

Apologies if I misunderstand but your point infers that there is not much difference between SD and HD on Sky TV unless you look carefully from a short distance.

Do you really believe this?

[Nigel Goodwin]

Originally Posted by SilverFox2

Hi d'@ve

Apologies if I misunderstand but your point infers that there is not much difference between SD and HD on Sky TV unless you look carefully from a short distance.

Do you really believe this?

It's obviously true - for SD you have to view from a certain minimum distance so you can't see the defects on the screen, or for a CRT set, the lines the picture is made of - essentially far enough away so you can't see fine detail.

With HD you have to view considerably closer, because you want to see the fine detail - that's the point.

But you certainly don't have to look carefully, the difference is staggering.

If you view from normal SD viewing distances you still get a better picture, but you're getting hardly any benefit from the HD picture.

[SilverFox2]

Hi Nigel,

I get the point, thanks for the explanation.

Current trend is to larger screens which is the same as viewing a smaller screen closer so if one has a smaller screen the effect you observe is even more obvious.

In fact if one could get a 14inch 1080p LCD or Plasma your comments would be even more obvious.